Fletch Answers Questions on Staff

Compensation, Hiring, HR & Housing, Issues & Policy, Job Descriptions, Reviews and Rest, Searching, Succession or Fired.

Compensation Issues

Senior Pastor with Little Retirement Savings

Hey Fletch … Our Senior Pastor is in trouble. He has been at the church for most of his working life and wants to retire. He can’t afford it. He has $300,000 in a 403b and opted out of Social Security years ago. At his high point, he earned over $200,000 a year. In the last decade he earned over $140,000 a year. Lately, the church hasn’t been doing well and he has deferred some of his compensation. Should we make him a “Pastor Emeritus” and continue to pay him? Should we do a “lifetime employment” agreement? We can’t see him broke and on the street! What happens in the future if new leadership wants to change the arrangement?

Those are some terrible numbers. For retirement, your pastor has only saved on average $1,950 a year for 40 years. He has done a terrible job of saving for retirement. At a 5% return of his savings, he will only have $15,000 of income for the rest of his life. Regular employees, and those pastors who stay in Social Security, are forced to put aside 15.3% of their wages. If he had saved that amount, after 40 years he would have had $2 million in retirement savings. He could have lived on a 5% return, an annual amount of $100,000. He could have bequeathed all $2 million on his death to family, church and gospel-centered ministries.

In the past, has the church verbally or in print made any promises about funding his retirement? Let’s say you give him a salary of $60,000 plus medical insurance, which could be another $10,000-$15,000. That will run $75,000 a year for the next 10, 20 or 30 years. Consider the impact of making a decision that will amount to $750,000 or $1.5 million or $2.25 million. The church would be so gracious to do that … all for a pastor who did little to actively plan and save for retirement. I know of one church that has a “lifetime employment” offer with a former Senior Pastor. I don’t know the legality of that agreement and think it is a handshake agreement.

For your decisions, you need to consider many issues. What is the church getting itself into? Are there legal ramifications in your state for lifetime employment? What if he has an affair; will your offer still be good? What about his wife or widow? Does his wife have any retirement? What if the church goes bankrupt? Robert Schuller lost his retirement when the Crystal Cathedral went bankrupt—it was in a “Rabbi Trust” which can only be broken by a bankruptcy. Get your thoughts together and consult a good attorney. I can recommend one of national standing who knows churches.

Cell Phone Policy for Staff

Hey Fletch … I’m working on our church’s cell phone policy and wondering if you have any resources that address that?

Here are some policy thoughts on that. Cell phones are a part of our personal and professional lives. There are issues regarding safety, security and privacy:

• Mute your phone within the office.
• Don’t take calls during meetings, unless it is a personal or ministry emergency.
• Keep personal texting to a minimum during the workday, as also with social media.
• If possible, make personal calls during breaks or lunch.
• For safety’s sake, only use a hands-free mode while driving, if at all.
• If you have minors in the car, the driver cannot be on the phone. The driver must pull over to the shoulder to make or take a phone call.
• For security, have a good password in use on your phone. Set the phone to auto lock after a short period of time. You must have the ability to lock your phone if it is stolen.
• If you violate this policy, you are subject to disciplinary action, which may include termination of your employment.

And what about reimbursing staff for their cell phone use. Any ideas?

I’m not a fan of reimbursing because people have different plan levels. Instead, I favor cell phone allowances. They are taxable but they do pay for ministry work done on them. You can set allowance levels, such as: Level 1—Directors and Pastors; Level 2—Team Leaders; Level 3—Senior Leadership. Do remember that if a non-exempt employee (such as a facility worker or administrative assistant) takes a phone call after hours, it must be put on their time card.

Staff Bonus

Hey Fletch … Can you give some thoughts about bonuses for staff? We are toying with the idea and don’t know what to make of it.

There isn’t much hard research data on how many churches are doing bonuses and what they cover. What is commonly called a bonus at Christmas is really a small gift. I’m talking about a $25 gift certificate, the $50 ham or the $100 bill. For tax reasons, they are bonuses and taxable income … but not what people hope for when they hear the word “bonus.” William Vanderbloemen pointed out in the Smart Money workshops that some churches tie a significant bonus into productivity. That work is often measured against the expectations in the job description or in quarterly goals. Some use a bonus to recognize performance that is far and above the ordinary, without much metrics attached. Another way is for a church to give a bonus to staff in lieu of raises.

Senior Pastor Salary

Hey Prof … This is a hard question. Can you give me some guidance on what kind of salary I might expect as a Senior Pastor of a church in the Pacific Northwest? It has about 1,000 in worship.

XPastor’s free Salary Forecaster has churches in the west near that attendance. The salary range goes from $94,000 to $182,000. That’s a wide gap but when you look at all the salaries for each church, it makes sense. I like a salary survey that shows me all the major salaries in a church, that way I get the data and the big picture.

Lifetime Salary

Hey Fletch … A guy just told me that he has a lifetime salary from his church. What are your thoughts about that kind of retirement plan?

What if the church goes belly up? There goes the retirement! In a GuideStone presentation at the XP-Seminar, one year we learned about Rabbi Trusts. They are valid unless the church goes bankrupt. I never thought that I would hear about it again. According to news reports, the Rev. Robert Schuller learned a hard lesson when the Crystal Cathedral filed for bankruptcy and apparently he lost his retirement. Though different from a Rabbi Trust, a pastor that receives a “lifetime salary” could be headed for similar future trouble. I would be wary and would consult an attorney and financial advisor about the concept. My preference is to provide cash for a church sponsored retirement plan for all staff.

SP Makes $700,000

Hey Fletch … no names or cities on this one … Few in our church know this and it might be disturbing to many if it leaked out. I just learned that our Senior Pastor makes over $700,000 a year. Is this considered excessive compensation? I mean, I make $92,500 and think I’m doing fine.

Let me start by assuring you that the Hey Fletch column never prints names of people who ask questions or identifying information about their church. This is a safe place to ask questions. Thank you for your trust in asking such a confidential question. There are extremely few pastors who receive the level of compensation that you have described. There was a ‘leaked memo’ from a church a number of years ago where it was recommended taking a pastor to over $600,000. At the time, that raised plenty of eyebrows in the community.

Let’s not talk about the legality, that is for another time. Let me say, though, that the church had better have some great documentation to show the comparable basis of such a wage, if it even exists. Let’s talk about the prudence of such a salary. Many will raise the same questions that you raise. Why is the pastor making so much? Few in our community come close to that amount. Is this what church is really about? Those questions should help keep salaries fair and reasonable. The Puritans are reported to have said, “God, you keep our pastors humble and we will keep them poor.” I’m not a fan of that. Let’s pay our pastors a fair wage so that they can live in our community. Pastoral life is demanding and spiritually draining; so we don’t need pastors who get second jobs to support themselves.

My Compensation

Hey Fletch … I’m trying to get a handle on my compensation. Is it fair? Am I underpaid? Please give some advice on comparable salaries for my role.

XPastor has the free Salary Forecaster. Most folks have found our numbers are right on the mark for their size church. For churches in the south in your size range, the average salary for your role is $87,500.

Growing Church & Pay Scales

Hey Fletch … I’m in a small church with a few part-time paid staff. We are hoping to grow them into full-time positions over the next 2 years, plus expand the staff. What is the best way to structure a pay scale that a church can grow into on the front end to avoid mis-compensating staff on the back end? How should be pay executive leadership, department heads, department staff, part-time and hourly workers?

I would recommend a simple compensation guide for your church. The first issue is not part-time vs. full-time. The issue needs to be, “what is a fair wage in our community.” You may be in an expensive urbanized area where housing costs are enormous. You may live in a state with no state income tax. Find out what high school teachers make in your community. Try on that salary for size. You may need to scale a teacher’s upwards for what you want to pay senior leaders. Perhaps keep it at the same level for department leaders and scale it downward for new pastors. There are lots of variations and variety that you will need to consider. The great thing about a good compensation guide is that it is scalable. You can modify it in a couple of years, adjust it for inflation or add new positions. You can find lots more information in XPastor’s free Salary Forecaster and the Forecaster Questions page. It will show you some sample salary grids—low to high salaries for a position. Also, see results from churches around the nation, all indexed for inflation.

Unpaid to Paid Role

Hey David … I will become an Assistant Pastor within three months. Initially, this will be an unpaid position. It will become paid once the church can afford me. How do I expedite that process? Help is appreciated.

The first thing that comes to mind is to launch a culture of generosity. Help the church by telling stories of ministry. I recently was at a church with enormous reach in their city. All they shared in e-news was “come be involved.” They need to tell stories of how God impacted those going and those being served. This connects back to your church’s vision of serving the community. In an Executive Education class at the Harvard Business School, I learned that stories demonstrate the reality of an organization’s vision statement. Show how vision is being lived out and invite the congregation to serve, give and pray. Who wouldn’t want to participate in their time and finances when they know of God’s impact?

Teacher Salary Data

Hey Fletch … Why do you utilize teacher compensation data for comparison data? I don’t necessarily believe they are compensated very well on average.

Some folks don’t think teachers are paid a fair and living wage. During the recent webinar, one person looked up teachers in their local school district. The comment back to me was, “Okay, now I get it. They are paid just about like our pastors.” I like school district pay scales as they are locally negotiated. They reflect local values and pay scales. And I’ve never had a congregant complain that our staff was paid about the same as local teachers. It’s a good talking point without ever going into the dollars and cents. Let me add that top staff in many churches earn salaries that are comparable to district officials. Finally, pastors can utilize the ministerial housing allowance to offset federal income taxes, while teachers tend to have better retirement plans in place.

Opting Out of Social Security

Hey Fletch … When I first became a pastor, people advised me to opt out of Social Security. I had been in business for over 20 years and they said, “you already paid enough.” From what you talked about in your keynote at the Shepherds 360 Conference, I think I may have broken the law.

There are of plenty of ideas out in the marketplace regarding opting out of Social Security. Dave Ramsey notes: “You can legally opt out of Social Security on religious grounds—but you need valid reasons. You can’t just say, ‘I want out because I want to do it myself.’ You have to fill out a form (4361 Form) and state your specific biblical grounds for opting out. Just remember that this only applies to the income you receive as part of your vocational ministry … If I were in your shoes and still serving as a church pastor, I’d opt out in a nanosecond.”

Notice that Ramsey says you must have “specific biblical grounds for opting out.” This is based on IRS Form 4361. Line 7 of that form says: “I certify that I am conscientiously opposed to, or because of my religious principles I am opposed to, the acceptance (for services I perform as a minister, member of a religious order not under a vow of poverty, or Christian Science practitioner) of any public insurance that makes payments in the event of death, disability, old age, or retirement; or that makes payments toward the cost of, or provides services for, medical care. Public insurance includes insurance systems established by the Social Security Act.”

If you opted out for financial reasons, or because you felt that “you paid enough,” then you have opted out incorrectly. However, there is no turning the clock back. The last window for pastors to re-enter happened in the early 2000s. Pastors need to realize that opting out takes their church wages out of Social Security and Medicare. The Medicare piece can become huge with the rising costs of medical insurance. If you have biblical grounds for being conscientiously opposed to the acceptance of any public insurance, I would like to hear them. To date, few pastors have expressed any cogent ones.

Housing Allowance Hurt

Hey Fletch … I heard you say at the Smart Money workshop, “If a pastor has low housing costs, it can actually hurt them financially.” My question is how? Isn’t it beneficial to have a portion of your income excluded from being taxed, even if it’s a small amount? I make about $56,000 and my housing allowance is about $13,000.

The difference comes when comparing a salary of a pastor to a non-pastor. The non-pastor who earns $56,000 has the employer pay 7.65% in FICA and the other 7.65% is deducted from their paycheck. The pastor pays all the SECA of 15.3%. The 25 year old pastor who lives at home, or in a shared apartment, making $40,000 in this sense is “losing money.” See Is the Minister’s Housing Allowance Now a Bum Deal for a full explanation. Remember to include in your housing allowance: Rent or mortgage, Furnishings, Taxes, Utilities—electricity, gas, water, sewer, Renovations, Community association fees, etc.

Honorarium

Hey Fletch … If a pastor performs a funeral or wedding and is paid directly, the pastor gives the check to our church finance office. I then add it to their salary on their next paycheck. But they sometimes hand me the check and say, “apply it to the designated missions account.” Then I don’t add it to their paycheck. Do I give the pastor contribution credit? The person who gave the check intended to pay the pastor, not donate the funds. The pastor may not want to pay taxes on it, so that is why he signs it over to the church. Should I insist it go on the pastor’s paycheck and, if they want to donate the funds, then it needs to come from the pastor directly?

The bottom line is that income is always counted as income. That money can be donated after it is counted as income to the pastor. Let me ask Dan Busby, former President of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, to comment on this.

Dan—If a pastor performs services that are outside of the scope of services for which the church is compensating the pastor (funerals, weddings and special speaking presentations outside the church are examples that usually fit this definition) and the pastor is compensated for those services, the pastor has received taxable income reportable on Schedule C (C-EZ).

If the pastor decides to endorse a check for the services provided above and then give the endorsed check to the church, the pastor is not relieved from reporting taxable income on Schedule C (C-EZ). The pastor has merely made a contribution to the church. With the new standard deduction levels that went into effect on January 1, 2018, most pastors will take the standard deduction instead of itemizing. So, if a pastor endorses over a check to the church of $500 (well, at least you can dream about an honoraria of that amount) for, let’s say, performing a wedding, the pastor has $500 of Schedule C (C-EZ) income and no offsetting deduction for the gift to the church. At this point, the pastor has no cash in hand and must come up with federal and state income taxes, plus self-employment social security, perhaps totaling 40%.

Could a church take the endorsed funds and pay the amount to the pastor as part of compensation? Well, yes, but this would amount to a salary increase which should be approved by the governing board. Could a pastor ask that the endorsed check representing a payment to the pastor for a wedding by considered a gift to a mission account? Yes, it is the pastor’s money and the pastor can use the money for either an unrestricted gift or a restricted (designated) gift.

Salary at a New Church

Hey Fletch … I am currently a pastor and am up for a new position at another church. I am going to have another interview with the Finance Committee soon and wonder your thoughts on negotiating salary. I also don’t know if you have a formula on figuring out the bring-home pay. I really worry about that because that is what matters to pay the bills. Thanks for your time!

Congratulations on the possibility of a new position. When you meet with their Finance Committee, it is a good time to talk total compensation. Consider various factors: Base salary; Benefits, such as medical, dental and life insurance; Cost for participation in the medical plan; Federal, state and local taxes. Cost of living differences between your city and the new one.

The formula is to add up the salary and benefits. See what the taxes will be on the salary, and compare that to what you make. Can you live in the new city on the salary that they are offering? As for comparative salaries, see the Salary Forecaster.

Joking About Raises

Hey Fletch … I have a staff member who constantly makes jokes about getting a raise. The first few times it was kinda funny, but now the humor has worn off. What should I do?

Humor can be an insight into someone’s thought life. It can also be divisive when it is hurtful or inappropriate. Your staff member is making inappropriate jokes. Money is on their mind. The jokes need to stop, now! The first thing to do is have a private conversation with the staff member. Set up a sixty-minute meeting to talk through the issues. I recommend an hour so that you will have sufficient time to have a thorough discussion. You don’t want to rush this!

Gently point out that they have joked about raises. Let them know how many times they have done this. Then, transition the discussion to where and how to have appropriate discussions with you about compensation. Your staff member may have valid concerns about their salary. They may be underpaid or feel that they are underpaid. Listen to their concerns. There may be a changing family situation, such as the birth of a child, that is putting new stress on their budget. While you do not want to give a raise based on this, you can commiserate with them about the financial challenge. I would not suggest promising a raise in the meeting but affirming that you will review their salary. Finally, conclude the meeting with a clear statement that they need to guard their humor and that your door is always open to conversations.

Car Allowance

Hey Fletch … I believe I’m clear on the minister’s housing allowance designation. What about a car allowance? We have a new employee who says ministers can claim a car allowance that’s much like a housing allowance. I’ve not heard of that. Is it something we can leverage for our ministerial employees? Thanks!

A car allowance is a taxable bonus. No documentation is needed because it is a bonus. There is nothing in a car allowance that is comparable with the housing allowance. It doesn’t reduce taxes but increases them. There is a way for auto use to be tax-free. The IRS each year publishes standard mileage rates for “costs of operating an automobile for business.” If you want tax-free reimbursement for auto uses, each trip has to be documented for the purpose, miles, date, etc. This is called an “accountable plan” and the individual must record a log of every trip. IRS Publication 463 outlines the policy and what is required in a log.

For example, with a log, a pastor can drive 51 miles round trip to visit someone in the hospital. The church can reimburse the pastor for the trip. Generally logs are kept for an entire month and a reimbursement check is then drafted for all logged miles. Some churches do not allow staff members to drive their own vehicles on long trips, say 1,500 miles round trip, which would be a huge reimbursement! For long trips, the church can have a policy in place that requires rental cars to be used. Making a log of each trip can be a pain. Often pastors forget to log their miles. At a recent workshop, a pastor mentioned that he used a smart phone app for the purpose. Without a log, you can’t reimburse tax-free. If you give an automobile allowance, it is taxable.
<h2″>Passports for Staff

Hey Fletch … I’m wondering if you have any guidance around paying for employee’s passport? It’s not expressly written that employees have to go on mission trips through the church but it is expected. We have an employee whose passport expired but is leading a trip next year. He’s raised the question asking if the church could pay for his passport renewal. I’m torn because it’s work related but with him only going once every few years he may travel for personal use on the passport. Thoughts?

I like the way that you start out, by stating that it is expected that employees go on mission trips. That comment gives a good sense of the church’s desire. If it is an expectation to go on a mission trip, then it would seem natural for the church to pay for the passport, photo and any other fees. This is strengthened further since the person is a leader of the trip. A passport is valid for 10 years. If the staff member goes every three years, that would be at least three trips divided into the passport fee. I would have the church pay it—and I have done this in the past when employees asked for it. That being said, if you think that they are going to do a significant amount of personal travel on the passport, then offer to pay half or two-thirds of the passport fee. What you want is a win-win scenario. You want the employee and church to feel that the church paid a fair portion of the passport fee.

Taxes Wrong

Hey Fletch … I’m new to working in a church and think that our business office got my taxes wrong. They said that federal law requires the church, as the employer, to take out withholding and Social Security taxes. Is this right?

Congratulations on your first ministry position! That is so exciting. What a great time of life. As to your business office, how do I say in a nice way, “they totally got it wrong … for pastors.” Their statement is true only for non-pastors. For non-pastors the church is required to take out federal income tax and FICA (which is 6.2% Social Security and 1.45% Medicare of gross wages). Pastors for income tax purposes are self-employed and the church cannot automatically take out income tax or SECA (the self-employed version of FICA). Pastors must pay estimated taxes. To pay estimated tax, the pastor can pay quarterly on April 15, June 15, September 15 and January 15. The pastor can also ask the church to send in funds to the government from each paycheck. This is a voluntary act by both the pastor and the church—the church could refuse to do so.

SECA—More

Hey Fletch … For a pastor that has been licensed by the Board of Elders, my assumption is that the church should not withhold any Social Security or Medicare tax, right?

Pastors pay into the Self Employed Contributions Act (SECA). IRS Publication 517 outlines Social Security for religious workers (see U.S. Department of Treasury, Internal Revenue Service, Publication 517, Social Security and Other Information for Members of the Clergy and Religious Workers. SECA is 15.3% of wages and goes to Social Security or Medicare. Only pastors who have opted out of Social Security are exempt from paying SECA. The church cannot pay Social Security or Medicare for the pastor! The pastor can ask the church to voluntarily withhold funds and remit them to the government for SECA. Or, the pastor can pay their own quarterly estimated taxes, which takes financial discipline.

Retirement Gifts

Hey Fletch … We have had some long-tenured staff who are going to retire. With previous people who have retired, we have awarded gifts in varying amounts from $3,000-$5,000 to retirees. I am trying to determine how other larger churches handle retirement gifts. Our attendance is over 3,000 and we have a budget of $6 million. Do other large churches have a policy concerning retirement gifts? If a financial gift is given, do they have a set amount or a graduated scale based on years of service?

Churches are all over the map on retirement gifts. Some churches do nothing. Some churches do a fixed amount depending on the type of employee, such as pastors, administrative staff and support staff. Some churches do a percentage of salary based on the number of years worked. Some churches do a fixed amount for each year worked at the church. Some churches do unique numbers based on each circumstance. I wish that I could give you a “best practice” for this issue. There is no dominant practice on retirement gifts. Do remember, though, that the gift is a bonus and taxable income to the person. A good practice would be to set your policy and be consistent in the implementation. The key is consistency in what you do from year to year and person to person. You may want to compile a list of past retirement gifts, as a way to be consistent in the years to come.

3.5% Annual Raises

Hey Fletch … Our church has been giving annual raises every year for a long, long time. They are 3.5% for every staff person. The thinking is that everyone is doing hard work and deserves the same raise. This doesn’t sit well with me. What do you think?

The sentiment in giving 3.5% raises every year is sweet. However, it doesn’t make economic sense or improve the morale of key staff. It assumes that everyone was hired at a fair wage. It also doesn’t take into account people who are star players who implement your church’s vision. A better method is to determine what the inflation number is each year. To keep salaries with the same buying power, a COLA raise may be merited for many staff. If you don’t keep up with inflation, then over four years your staff can lose 10% or more of their effective wages. With a 3.5% raise pool and with 2% cost of living increases, you would have significant funds for merit increases for selected staff. Calculate what 1.5% of your raise pool comes to and how you might invest those funds in key staff.

Freelance Work

Hey Fletch … Do you have any articles that deal with pastors doing freelance work? This might be coaching or consulting that is outside of their formal church work. How does this relate to creating healthy kingdom policies from an HR/staff handbook perspective? Thanks!

I have several “Hey Fletch” columns on pastors who write books and other intellectual property issues. Your issue is a little different. You are asking about off-hours work that the pastor engages in. In business, there are some high level executives that are forbidden from doing any freelance work. Generally, these are well-compensated leaders who do not “need” the extra income. The freelance work might share trade secrets of their company with competitors. The last time that I checked the New Testament, there were no trade secrets relating to the gospel. Consider how many hours you expect your pastors to work for the church. Most churches land in the 40 to 50 hour range. Do you want to try to regulate off-hours work? Do you have the right to do that?

My view is that a pastor has the right to spend off hours or vacation time as they desire. The criteria is that the quality of their church work cannot diminish. If the pastor does consulting or speaking outside of work hours, it is not a church HR issue. There should be a good arm’s length distance between the church and the consulting work. The pastor should not use a church computer or any other church resource for the consulting. Church personnel on church time should not be assisting the pastor, such as an administrative assistant making travel arrangements. Pastors who do external consulting often bring back to the church a great wealth of ministry experience. This can be of solid value to your church.

Small Poll of Benefits

Hey Fletch … I promised to send you the results of our poll of 18 churches. What do you glean from the findings?

Thank you for sending the file. The small poll gives good insight into what they contribute toward employee and family medical premiums. You are in a larger church with over 1,000 in worship. Your poll went up to churches of 10,000 in worship. The Affordable Care Act requires employers with more than 50 full-time equivalent employees to provide health benefits. The IRS says, “Employer-provided coverage is considered affordable for an employee if the employee required contribution is no more than 9.56 percent (as adjusted) of that employee’s household income.” In the poll, this difference is seen in what is paid for employees verses their dependents.

The poll shows that the churches pay 99% of the ministers health premium and 70% of the dependents of ministers. Church administrative staff have 95% of their premium paid and 39% for their dependents. Support staff also have 95% of their premium paid and 33% for their dependents. Generally, churches provide good medical insurance benefits for their pastors. The dependents of administrator and support staff could be a lower number due to either the plans churches offer or insurance through a spouse. While the poll only had 18 churches with over 1,000 in worship, it would be interesting to know what a larger sample shows. You have provided some great data!

Benefits Poll

Hey Fletch … I read your column “Poll of Church Health Insurance Benefits.” As you have looked into this, were you able to find more comprehensive data?

My friends at GuideStone were able to point me to some great data. Lifeway has an online report where you can input location and position information. On a state-by-state basis, this customizable report includes medical, dental, vision and life/accident and disability insurance. I selected the check box for “Texas—Southern Baptist of Texas” and “Senior Pastor Full-Time.” This is outstanding data from all across the nation. Thanks to Lifeway for this valuable resource.

Health Insurance Premiums

Hey Fletch … In prepping for a personnel committee meeting next week, the question arose as to the way we cover health insurance for our employees. We currently pay 100% of the employee’s coverage and 60% of the family premium. This is across the board for everyone. In your dealings with churches, what are you hearing and seeing churches do for their employees with health insurance?

I can tell that it is budget season for many churches. I’m getting many questions about salary and benefits! Comparing benefits is a challenge. Churches do not publish a list of all benefits for others to see. My experience is that health insurance costs are all over the map. Some churches pay 100% of employee and families. Others have a set percentage, say 20% of all premiums, that the employee pays. Others have a split formula, such as yours. You mentioned that you are going to poll churches in your region, let me know what you find.

Compensation Matrix

Hey Fletch … We are developing a salary matrix where each tier of employment has ranges from low to max. I have been working on this, but wanted to know if there were tools or companies that do this for churches. Do you know of anyone who could help? Our Compensation Committee desires an outside organization to conduct the review.

You are asking about a vital area for churches. There are so many details to consider. Getting them all right prepares you to create a great salary grid. First, check out the material in the Free Salary Forecaster on XPastor. There are lots of examples there for you to consider. I do create 35+ page Compensation Studies. Let me know the size of your church, staff and any cost centers (School, Bookstore, Camp, etc) and we can go from there.

Hiring

Reference Call Questions

Hey Fletch … Are there any limits to the questions we can ask in a reference call? I ask because I used to work for a para-church organization and was involved in hiring a few times. One of my supervisors used to say that he gets around any illegal questions by asking the references those questions … because everything is free game with a reference. I wanted to check and see if that was correct.

When it comes to talking with references, you need to be careful to ask legal questions. It is not “open season” with a reference call. The Balance had an article, What Do Employers Ask in a Reference Check?, that listed these great questions:

• When did (name) work for your company? Could you confirm starting and ending employment dates? When did s/he leave the company?
• What was her/his position? Can you describe the job responsibilities?
• Could I briefly review (name’s) resume? Does the job title and job description match the position that (name) held?
• Why did (name) leave the company?
• What was her/his starting and ending salary? (In some locations, employers are precluded from asking about salary due to state and local legislation.)
• Did (name) miss a lot of work? Was s/he frequently late? Were there any issues you are aware of that impacted her/his job performance?
• Did s/he get along well with management and co-workers?
• Can you describe this person’s experience working as a member of a team?
• Did (name) prefer to work on a team or independently?

Need Employment Application

Hey Fletch! We are a small but growing church that typically hires from within our own membership. We are considering adding an employment application but don’t know where to begin. Can you recommend a good resource for what kind of questions to ask (and what is too personal?) As we’ve experienced growth and haven’t had as long to get to know prospective applicants, we’ve been surprised by a few situations that seem like they would be discovered via a thorough application process instead of a “handshake over lunch” process. Thanks!

You need an employment application for everyone that you interview! It should be kept on file for 7 years after hiring a person or 4 years after not hiring the individual. Here is a sample employment application that we posted on XPastor. Use this as a basis for your own form. XPastor supplies this information for education purposes only. Consult an attorney or labor specialist to determine the needs and laws in your state. Remember that your state may have provisions above and beyond federal requirements.

Support staff (non-ministerial) are covered by lots of rules and regulations. As a church, you can hire only people of like faith. Yet, be careful not to ask the wrong sort of questions. For example, do not ask: Questions that requires a person to reveal their age or birthdate; Questions that force one to reveal protected data; such as race, national origin, or disability; Questions that require the person to send a picture; Questions about being married or maiden name; Questions about languages spoken, unless it’s a job requirement. However, in the interview, the candidate may volunteer information about their spouse or children. At that point, it is fair to ask about their family.

There are few rules about what questions you can or cannot ask a pastoral candidate. Pastors are in a special category as religious leaders. As such, they get little help from fair hiring laws. You can, and should, dig deep into their lives. Ensure that your pastors fully meet your qualifications for spiritual leadership. Always ask for written permission to do a background check on the applicant. Do not hire someone without a background check!

Questions for SP Candidate

Hey Fletch … We have a senior pastor candidate who will be visiting our church this weekend, Thursday-Monday. I am attaching a list of questions that I think the board of elders should ask. Do you have any additional questions that are important? Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Whether you do a written response or have a dialogue with the candidate, you have the right kind of questions. Your 37 questions could take a long time to work through! I’d suggest a rolling dialogue that gives you the opportunity to ask “grouped questions.” In one to two hours, you could work through most of your topics. If you can’t do that this weekend, do a Zoom call with the candidate. Zoom is better than telephone as you can see the facial expressions of the candidate.

The best addition that I could give to your questions is what I noted above—organize them by type. Don’t be seen as having a machine gun list but have a flowing discussion. Areas could include:

• Personal life—talk to us about your spouse and family. What was your family like growing up? What was your teenage life like? How did you handle the struggles of being a teenager in a crazy society?
• Preaching—do you have a fire in your belly to preach? What will you do to allow enough time for study and preparation to preach? How will you delegate things so that you can handle a two-site church? What stories can you share about balancing ministry?
• Doctrine—you have plenty of issues here.
• Church Polity—talk about your understanding and alignment with your denomination.
• Family—how can we help your family integrate into your city? What about the distance to your other family members in other states?
• Personal Struggles—From a fiduciary perspective we need to ask about anytime those struggles have manifested in inappropriate sexual activity or harassment, or issues with the police. Please comment on this. Have you ever been accused of these things by a church member or staff member?

Key Selection Criteria

Hey Fletch … I am just working to word up some Key Selection Criteria and interview questions to present and get signed off so we can move to advertise the XP position. If you had a few moments to look and comment on the attached Position Description and Selection Criteria, I would value that. Hopefully we will sign off on this with any appropriate amendments on Wednesday this week to begin to advertise and fill the role ASAP.

I like the way you have described the document, Key Selection Criteria. It is both inclusive and sets your expectations for the role. I would suggest that you put percentages of time in the role description. You have five main areas: Executive, Human Resources, Pastoral Care, Operations and Evaluation. Over the course of a year, should each of these areas get 20% of the XPs time? Or, will one area get 40%, another 20% and so on? You will help your future XP by setting out priorities via setting percentages of time. These aren’t hard and fast rules, but guidelines. However, in a review, percentages of time is a great benchmark. Say that you wanted Pastoral Care to get 20% and in the review the new XP said, “I spend 60% of my time there.” Well, you have an issue to work through. Food for thought. Bon Appétit.

Hiring a Care Minister

Hey Fletch … I was in a class of yours in the Doctor of Ministry program at Dallas Seminary. As Senior Pastor of our church, we’re hiring a care minister. I’ve attached our job description and we have a candidate who is a long-time member. He’s been sensing a call out of the corporate world and shows a lot of the giftedness and experience for this position. I need a good book on pastoral care in a 1,000+ member church that is relatively contemporary that will give him a primer on leading a care ministry for caring. He will have to do some seminary training. I need some good books to get him started and to serve as a discussion starter as we move toward hiring him. Thoughts? You may know someone who can make a recommendation.

I remember our time together and it’s a delight to hear from you. A couple of thoughts on the role description: The one-page length of the job description is ideal. It includes percentages of time. These aren’t hard and fast but guidelines of expected time use. They help set priorities for how you want the time to be invested. I would include something about Ephesians 4—where the Scriptural basis of the role is to train and equip others. Pastors have a hard time with this, especially in the Care area. They want to go and do, and that is vital. But, there will always be more care needs than any one person can do. You have a great emphasis on team in the description, but show that it is a biblical mandate for all pastors. Ephesians 4:12 “… to equip the saints for the work of ministry, that is, to build up the body of Christ, 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God—a mature person, attaining to the measure of Christ’s full stature.”

We have assembled a list of key books from XPastor’s online courses. There are plenty of winners here: Sam Chand—Leadership Pain: The Classroom for Growth; Henry Cloud—Necessary Endings; Henry Cloud and John Townsend—Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life; Ken Sande—The Peacemaker: A Biblical Guide to Resolving Personal Conflict. There are also many books on Amazon on the practice of Pastoral Care. You have a counselor on staff who is knowledgable of your hands-on needs. God’s best to you and your church in this new hire!

Hiring Process

Hey Fletch … Here in Nigeria I have a question. I would like to know if there are templates on church staff recruitment decision making … like a decision grid.

I’m not sure that I would use the word ‘template,’ as each church is unique. You want to create a style, or template, that reflects who your church is. Yet, there are many common issues to hiring among churches. To address these common factors, I wrote an article that may help you: A Ten Step Process For Hiring Church Staff. Also, check out articles in our Hiring section on XPastor.

Here are the 10 Steps: 1) Send your job description to multiple sources and receive resumes. 2) Respond to each applicant via email within a week. 3) Make an initial phone call to candidates who fit your description and profile. 4) Make a second call to those you are interested in. 5) Check references. 6) First “in person” interview. 7) Have the candidate put his/her thoughts on paper. 8) Second “in person” interview. 9) Bring the interview team together for a final call on the candidate. 10) The hiring lead makes the offer.

You should examine each of the ten steps and see how they fit your situation in Nigeria. Your local church polity and policy may come into play, such as who does the selection and who makes the final decision. I am not an expert on Nigerian culture or the structure of your church … but the principles can help you create a hiring template. God’s best to you across the ocean and thanks for writing.

Job Descriptions

Employees Who Want to Volunteer

Hey Fletch … Our church is processing what I learned at the workshop on Smart Money for Church Salaries. We are trying to come to grips with part-time employees not being able to volunteer in their areas of ministry. One of our pastors is blind and we hired a part-time assistant that helps with the parts of the job that are not possible due to the disability. This assistant also volunteers in many areas of the pastor’s department. The person is paid for 10 hours a week but probably is here 25 hours a week. The team asked me to check to make sure there were no considerations for the disability through the ADA.

There is an interesting item associated with the Americans with Disabilities Act that addresses a Workplace Personal Assistant (WPA), or also called Personal Assistance Services (PAS). Here are three articles to consider. Disability Rights Ohio has an interesting article on this: “Community Integration: Personal Assistants and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).” The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has an article: “Questions and Answers: Federal Agencies’ Obligation to Provide Personal Assistance Services (PAS) under Section 501 of the Rehabilitation Act.” Barcus and Targett have an insightful piece, “Workplace Personal Assistant Services: Employers Perspective.” It is wonderful that your church has provided a Workplace Personal Assistant. From my understanding this is not required by law, so extra kudos to your church!

However, as I have reviewed the regulations, I don’t see any provision to not pay the WPA the full number of hours worked. A possible loophole to this would be to have a tightly defined job description as WPA for 10 hours per week. The person could then volunteer other hours per week. Let me get some input from an HR professional on this issue. Tiffany Henning is the founder of HR | Ministry Solutions and is XPastor’s go-to expert on these kinds of issues.

Tiffany Henning—ADA would not affect the answer to this question as it is an employee versus volunteer issue. First, let’s look at some of the factors that are considered to differentiate between them:

1. Is the activity less than a full-time occupation? Volunteers should generally be part time.
2. Are the services offered freely and without pressure or coercion? Volunteers should generally not be required to work a specific schedule and should volunteer of their own free will. If they are scheduled to work on a specific day of the week, they can miss a day without any consequences.
3. Are the services of the kind typically associated with volunteer work? Volunteers generally cannot be involved in sales or other direct participation in commerce.
4. Have regular employees been displaced to accommodate the volunteer? See below.
5. Does the worker receive (or expect) any benefit from the entity to which it is providing services? Volunteers should have no expectation of pay or benefits.

Because of these factors, many churches and ministries do not allow their staff to volunteer in the same ministry that they are employed in. However, if an employer does wish to allow non-exempt employees to volunteer, it is important that it be for duties that are completely different than their own job duties and where there is no implied or stated requirement to do the volunteer work. Ideally, the organization should put in writing with the employee that the time is distinct from normal work and that it will not be compensated. Ultimately, there is not a lot of case law in this area, but most issues arise when volunteers are working full-time and treated like employees. Non-profit organizations should review situations at their organization and decide how risk tolerant they wish to be.

Paying Interns

Hey Fletch … We are beginning to think about interns for the summer. Can we pay an intern a monthly salary and have them work as many hours as needed?

Interns are not exempt employees. If they were exempt by job function (doing management activity) and salary (making over the federal salary levels and higher in many states), then your interns could work as many hours as they want to. However, the definition of “intern” essentially rules them out of doing management activity. So, interns are non-exempt and subject to all wage and hour regulations.

From a practical perspective, consider this recent court case covered by Reuters in “Condé Nast agrees to $5.8 million settlement in suit over intern pay”: “Condé Nast agreed to pay $5.8 million to settle a class-action lawsuit brought by thousands of former interns at the publisher who said they were underpaid for work at the company’s high-end magazines. The case is one in a wave of recent suits brought against media and entertainment companies that pay little or nothing for internships. Lauren Ballinger, who worked for approximately $1 per hour organizing accessories in the fashion closet at W Magazine, and Matthew Leib, who earned around $300 for a summer internship at the New Yorker, were the two lead plaintiffs in the case.” Morally and practically, pay your interns for hours worked. Pay them for all overtime. Be a shining light to the business community of good ethics.

Exempt and Non-Exempt Employees

Hey Fletch … I am confused about exempt and non-exempt employees. My understanding is that an employee paid an hourly rate is not exempt. Are there exceptions? I’m under the impression our employee “Ann” would be eligible for overtime for any hours worked over 40 in a one-week time period. But my manager is telling me that’s not true. My manager replied that it depends not only on hours, but also on the class of the employee, whether they are exempt or non-exempt. An HR director from a sizable company walked through it all with us. They said that we can have hourly employees that are exempt and non-exempt. It depends on the nature of their duties and whether or not they have supervisory responsibilities and independent decision making which Ann does. I believe Ann averages 39 hours. Thank you for helping me understand this!

First let me say that pastors are exempt from the Fair Labor Standards Act. The Department of Labor writes about the FLSA that it “establishes minimum wage, overtime pay, recordkeeping, and child labor standards.” Workers who are exempt from the FLSA can work more than 40 hours in a week without extra compensation, are not required to keep a timecard and do not need to take meal and rest breaks, among other regulations.

Pastors are exempt because they are under the “ministerial exemption.” Other ministry workers may be exempt as well but this is a debated part of the regulations. Other kinds of exempt employees are executives, managers and certain administrative personnel. Each of these three classes of exemption have job requirements associated with it.

In addition to the job requirements for FLSA exemption, the employee must exceed the federal salary minimum. Certain states have a higher salary minimum for exemption. For example, California requires that exempt employees receive at least two times minimum wage. Exempt employees must be paid a salary … you cannot pay them for the number of hours worked. For executives, managers and some administrative personnel to be exempt, the job requirements and the salary minimums must both be met. Otherwise, you must pay the staff person overtime if they work more than 40 hours in a week. California, and perhaps your state, has extra provisions, such as overtime is required if the employee works more than 8 hours a day, or more than 40 hours a week or seven days in a row.

Whether a church classifies an employee as “hourly” or “salary” has no bearing on their exemption status. Suppose that a church pays a non-exempt employee a salary and that employee works overtime. The church must compute the employee’s hourly wage (which is their annual salary divided by 2080 working hours in a year) and then pay at least time and a half for every hour worked overtime. Get this right for your church … otherwise you will be in a heap of trouble.

Ministry Staff and Overtime

Hey Fletch … If a church requires its ministry staff to attend a course, such as a discipleship class, after hours, 3 hours a week for 12 weeks, is the church required to pay them for their hours? Is it the same for all classes of employees?

The answer is “yes, if the person is non-exempt.” The church must pay for any work hours and this required class would be work. Ministers are exempt employees, so they would not earn overtime pay. Non-exempt staff need to track their time for the class and report it on their time card. If they work more than 40 hours in a week (some states up the ante on this), that time is paid at time-and-a-half.

HR Issues

Hey Doc … Our church isn’t of a size to yet need an HR person on staff. Yet, I need help on HR policy and best practices. Our state has lots of laws and I don’t want to run afoul of them.

Contact your church insurance company. Many have ample resources to help you stay clear of personnel problems. I’m amazed at how much information a good agent can give you at no cost. At some point, do an HR audit. Hire a professional to audit your policy and practices. This may cost anywhere from $1,000-3,000 but it would be money well spend. The audit will produce a task list to bring your church up to state and federal requirements. Then the “fun” of implementation begins! Also, talk to the folks at HRMinistry Solutions.

Staff & Retreats

Hey Fletch … We have a full-time youth pastor and a part-time youth administrative assistant. We have a youth retreat coming up and we are trying to figure out how to pay or not pay for our PT admin to go on the retreat. What are the laws and best practices for PT workers at camps and retreats?

This is a humdinger of a question and a challenging topic. Your employee is non-exempt. This means that they are covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). Your pastor is not covered by the FLSA. The Administrative Assistant, being covered by the FLSA, brings various regulations.

Let me start by giving some relevant webpages and quotes on the topic. Then, I will summarize the information. The U.S. Department of Labor writes: “Time spent traveling during normal work hours is considered compensable work time. Time spent in home-to-work travel by an employee in an employer-provided vehicle, or in activities performed by an employee that are incidental to the use of the vehicle for commuting, generally is not “hours worked” and, therefore, does not have to be paid.”

One website notes: “The Fair Labor Standards Act has a complex set of conditional rules for when and how non-exempt employees should be paid. The issue of pay for travel is particularly sticky and is addressed at both the federal and, in many cases, the state level as well. The remedy is often based on the specifics of the situation and depends on the purpose of the travel, where the employer is located and the type of work being performed. A key question to ask when evaluating these circumstances is: Is the travel for the employer’s or the employee’s benefit?” They continue with: “Overnight travel that spills into a weekend must be carefully measured to ensure that the hourly employee is paid at the correct rate. For example, if the employer defines the work week Sunday through Saturday and an employee travels for work over the course of a weekend, the time paid for working on a Saturday may qualify for overtime pay if the employee’s total hours worked exceeds 40 hours.”

Another website gives some helpful insight: “Business trips to other states or cities must be paid. Travel to and from the airport does not have to be paid; this travel is analogous to travel to and from work. However, time spent waiting for the plane, in the plane and renting a car or waiting for a cab must be covered at the employee’s normal hourly rate. Employers must also pay for time spent working, including attending seminars and meeting with clients. Employers do not have to pay for time spent sleeping, in the hotel or at lunch.” I don’t see that your state adds to the federal regulations concerning employee travel.

Let me bring all these together for you. The youth retreat would be counted as work time for the administrative assistant. As a non-exempt employee, they cannot volunteer for this assignment. The assistant cannot count travel to the church or the airport, but can count hours to the retreat, either at the airport or airplane, or in the van or automobile. While at the retreat, they can work a regular work day, or longer, so long as it does not come to more than 40 hours in their workweek. You do not have to pay for sleep time. You may be able to give the assistant time off before the retreat, so that their work week does not exceed 40 hours. As I said before, you have asked a humdinger of a question. It is challenging!

Not Putting Time on the Time Card

Hey Fletch … We have a part-time hourly administrative assistant in the office. I hear they are often working more hours than they are actually putting on their time card. I believe in for-profit businesses this is against the rules. Is that the case for the church? By allowing the practice, are we open to problems down the road? I value your expertise!

There are no separate rules for reporting hours in business versus church for hourly workers. They are all treated the same. Non-exempt employees are all in the same class, “non-exempt.” A worker cannot volunteer to do more work in their area. This leads to abuse because people are told or expected to “volunteer” more hours. If a person works in their assigned area, they must be paid. The only way that a non-exempt employee can volunteer is to serve in an entirely different part of church life. For example a high school administrative assistant can sing in the choir or serve in children’s VBS. This must be voluntary and the service have no bearing on their job. The high school assistant cannot go on a high school retreat and give administrative help without being paid.

Your church is breaking the labor laws and regulations. If reported to your state officials, the church would be subject to a complete review of all wages paid for every employee for the last one to three years. There would be a fine and back payment would need to be made. I would suggest that your church immediately correct the situation. Pay the unpaid wages.

Emergency Overtime and Non-Exempt Staff

Hey Fletch … I’m wondering if our non-exempt staff can put in extra hours during an emergency. Do they have to be paid for this? I found online a reference to “emergency relief capacity.” If individuals volunteer to a private, not-for-profit organization, are they entitled to compensation? Individuals who volunteer their services in an emergency relief capacity to private not-for-profit organizations for civic, religious or humanitarian objectives, without contemplation or receipt of compensation, are not considered employees due compensation under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). However, employees of such organizations may not volunteer to perform on an uncompensated basis the same services they are employed to perform. I’m wondering if the same applies if in a regular everyday scenario where the employee just wants to work some more to complete their task without being on the clock.

The item that you cited applies to a person who volunteers to help a non-profit. It does not apply to employees of the non-profit organization. Employees in your church must be paid for the work that they do in their job description. An example of an exception can be if you have an employee who serves in hurricane relief. If this trip or work is outside of their normal job description, it could be done as a volunteer.

Exempt Salary

Hey Fletch … For exempt workers, is it required that they receive a regular salary payment, independent of the number of hours they work? If they work under 40 hours, we currently pay however many hours they work. We don’t pay overtime if they work over 40 in a week since they’re exempt. I thought that an exempt worker would receive a regular, set payment. Can we pay them a varying amount depending on how many hours they work?

For questions like yours, I like to go to the source. Concerning the salary aspect of exemption, the U.S. Department of Labor says “To qualify for exemption, employees generally must be paid at not less than $684 per week on a salary basis.” The DOL continues, “The predetermined amount cannot be reduced because of variations in the quality or quantity of the employee’s work … an exempt employee must receive the full salary for any week in which the employee performs any work, regardless of the number of days or hours worked.”

There is the answer to your question. Exempt workers are paid a fixed salary. They are not paid on the number of hours that they work, whether that be above or below forty hours a week. I like the way that one article put it: “Whether an employee is paid on a salary basis is not affected by whether pay is expressed in hourly terms, as this is a fairly common requirement of many payroll computer programs …” If your church has reduced an exempt employee’s salary based on hours worked, you could be in hot water. The church should follow the DOL requirements to “reimburse employees for any improper deductions.” Your church is in jeopardy and should immediately seek professional counsel. This is a serious salary issue. Your church is at risk for losing its exemption status for a period of time.

Associate Pastor Title

Hey Fletch … At the SoCal Smart Money for Church Salaries workshop, I noticed that the title Associate Pastor did not come up. You mostly mentioned the titles of SP, XP, Pastor and Assistant Pastor. Is the title of Associate Pastor from the past akin to the Pastor title in your research?

In the 1960’s the title of Associate Pastor became common. Most churches had one pastor. When a second one was added as the church grew, many times that person was called an associate pastor. As the church grew even larger with multiple associate pastors, a staff leader was often called senior associate pastor. The preaching pastor was often called the senior pastor. At the turn of the millennium, the executive pastor role became common in churches all around the country. Other titles began to change. Those who were formerly called associate pastor began to be called pastor. Those just entering ministry began to be called assistant pastor. So, the title of associate pastor is fading some, after being used for 30-40 years. Things may change in the future and the title could find a resurgence!

Staff Not Responding to Emails

Hey Fletch … I send out emails to our staff and don’t get a response. What should I do?

First, make sure that your emails ask for a response. Keep each email with just one focus item. In other words, don’t ask four complicated questions in one email. That won’t work. If you have staff who don’t respond, send them a text message. “Hey, I haven’t seen a response to my email. Could you get back to me in 24 hours?” If that doesn’t work, do a tongue-in-cheek follow up, “Hey, if you don’t respond to my emails, are you responding to people in the congregation?”

Finally, bring down the gavel, “If I don’t hear from you in 24 hours, I could have the accounting department forget to issue you a paycheck.” I had a missionary one time who was “too busy” to respond to our annual questionnaire. He said he could get it to me in 60 days or so. Yet, the information was vital to the church. I let him know that we could hold up his support until the information arrived in the church office. He sent in the questionnaire the next day.

45 Minuite Meetings

Hey Fletch … I heard you say once that you often limit meetings with staff to 45 minutes. Can you explain that to me?

Your memory is better than mine. I don’t recall saying that but it sounds like something I would say. Here’s why. The first thing that you want to do is to define the purpose of your meeting. Is it to get to know the staff member better, to talk about spiritual things or to review ministry? The problem with most meetings is that they don’t have a purpose. They meander and touch on this subject and then on that. At the end, no one really knows what happened in the meeting. No decisions were made and no apparent progress in ministry occurred. If you want to have a meeting focussed on spiritual development, set that as the agenda. If it is to review ministry progress, go for it. Most meetings can happen in 45 minutes as that forces you to stick to the subject! By the way, start your meetings on time … and end on time too!

45 Minute Meeting—Follow Up Question

Hey Fletch … I read the Hey Fletch column about the 45 minute meetings. This just won’t work. How am I supposed to do an annual review in that amount of time?

You make an excellent point. Many meetings can happen in 45 minutes. However, significant meetings can take far longer. An annual review is one of those meetings. For an annual review, I like to schedule a 90-minute meeting. These let everyone know that we are going to be talking about many important subjects. Further, it reminds the attendees that each topic can be discussed leisurely. Don’t make time an enemy when it comes to a review! Let me add: though you have a longer meeting for a review, have an agenda. Let the attendees know what you want to talk about. Give homework before the review. If you don’t get through all the agenda items, then schedule a follow-up meeting. Reviews are immensely important to the employee and the church. Staff need to know that they have enough time to “tell their story.” The church needs sufficient time to gather information on how the employee is doing. Relax and enjoy the review!

SP Candidate & Church Trouble

Hey Fletch … We have some serious problems at the church and are also interviewing a senior pastor candidate. Should we tell the candidate about our big issues before or after he has accepted the job? If I tell him, he may not come. If I do not tell him, later he will ask why the problems were not shared.

I would suggest having a frank conversation as soon as possible. Give the candidate a broad perspective of the issues. Let him know the strengths and limitations. You don’t want to scare him away, but you also don’t want to intentionally hold any major issue back. You may be surprised. A smart candidate should have already been surfacing issues. Your conversation may not raise any new issues! If you wait until after he has accepted the position, he will rightly feel deceived.

Illegal Hiring Questions

Hey Fletch … I have a question about hiring a new staff member. I am the lead pastor at my church and have never been on this side of the hiring process. I know that there are questions which are illegal to ask applicants under the equal opportunity employment act (such as I can’t ask if they are married or have a family). My understanding is that churches are bound by this law as well. Is that correct?

When hiring pastors, you can ask virtually any question. As religious leaders, pastors are essentially exempt from those rules and regulations. When hiring all other staff, you need to follow the normal rules of business. There are some special considerations as well. You can ask if they can affirm your statement of faith. You have the right to hire people of like faith. You can also ask if they can support the moral positions of your church as defined in your bylaws and policies. A way to ask about personal things is to ask open-ended questions, such as “tell me about yourself” or “As a church, our faith journey is important, what has yours been like?” Most people will introduce their spouse and children into the conversation. When they have done this, you can ask about those people. In describing their faith journey, you can see if they are an active Christian and meet your standards. Great to visit on this. You can learn more in our course, Smart Money for Church Salaries.

PEO & HR

Hey Fletch … I recently hired a Professional Employment Organization (PEO) to handle most of our HR services. On the first two payrolls they issued, they collected federal and state unemployment tax. Historically, we had never paid that. After some research, it seems as though our church is exempt from federal unemployment tax and has the option of paying state unemployment tax. I realize we may “mitigate” the risk of an unemployment claim by paying the tax regularly, but it does not seem financially sound. In our state, the maximum claim is $390 a week for 26 weeks, while 3.9% of our total payroll is over $26,000 a year. We have the savings to pay a maximum $10,140 claim should we be requested to reimburse one. I would much rather do that instead of paying 2.5 times that a year in taxes if it is not required. Am I missing something? I want to make sure we play by the rules, but in this case it seems like a large unnecessary expense for us. Your response would be helpful.

There is a good summary of a Professional Employment Organization (PEO) on Wikipedia: “A PEO is a firm that provides a service under which an employer can outsource employee management tasks, such as employee benefits, payroll and workers’ compensation, recruiting, risk/safety management, and training and development. The PEO does this by hiring a client company’s employees, thus becoming their employer of record for tax purposes and insurance purposes. This practice is known as co-employment.”

I haven’t talked to anyone recently who has used a PEO. There are some interesting issues for churches. You have found one of them with unemployment insurance. Another issue is how the PEO would handle ministerial housing allowances. If the PEO is your agent, then they could pay the allowances. If the PEO is the employer of all of your staff, it would be interesting to see how a non-church would pay housing allowance that only churches can pay. Can they adequately account for this since they are not a church?

Response—After some further discussion with the PEO, I realized since they are not a 501c3 they are required to pay the unemployment tax. It no longer seems as if there’s a choice for us. Now, I need to determine if the benefit of hiring them still outweighs the increased cost.

Signing Bonus and Form 4361

Hey Fletch … We are paying a pastor a sign-on bonus that has filed their 4361 and at the same time has a W4 with the church. What is the church’s responsibility when it comes to withholding taxes on the bonus? Does the church withhold zero taxes on the bonus since he is licensed and has filed 4361? Does the church withhold taxes per the W4 that the clergy has with the church?

I’m so glad that this column preserves your anonymity. Otherwise, if the word got out that you were doing sign-on bonuses, you would be inundated with applications! IRS Form 4361 is used for a pastor to opt out of Social Security for conscientious reasons. This must be done before the second tax year of a pastor’s religious employment and only pertains to money earned in religious employment. Whether the pastor has opted out of Social Security is not a part of this issue. Churches cannot pay into Social Security for pastors! Pastors pay into Social Security on their own through SECA at 15.3% of their wages.

Form W4 for a pastor is only used as a mechanism to ask the church to remit funds to the government for estimated taxes. The church is under no governmental burden to do so. The pastor can ask the church to make estimated tax payments from the sign-on bonus. As a self-employed person for tax purposes, the pastor is responsible for all of their own taxes. The church is not responsible to take out taxes on regular wages or bonuses. If the church does respond to a pastor’s request to send in estimated tax payments, then the church will report that on the pastor’s W-2 statement.

Cannabis Products

Hey Fletch … Should our church have a policy on the use of cannabidiol or CBD oil? Our Lead Pastor is concerned about this. This stuff is legal in our state. We have a youth pastor whose wife and kids use it and are open about it with the youth. We are looking for some policy precedence on this.

Your church may or may not have a position on the use of medical and recreational marijuana and its derivatives, but your people certainly have a view. The same is true for cannabis derivatives, such as CBD oil, or the new hot item, edibles. The American public has changing views on these items. U.S. News & World Report noted in Where Is Weed Legal? A Guide to Marijuana Legalization, “a Gallup poll conducted in October 2019 found that 66% of U.S. adults think the drug should be legal.” Although outlawed at the federal level, 18 states have legalized marijuana for recreational use and 35 states allow it for medical use. We see that the acceptance and use by adults is rapidly growing in the United States.

Just as I was editing my response, today the Wall Street Journal reported in Talking to Teens About Cannabis Gummies as Use Booms on a new item, edibles:

Unlike joints, with their puffs of smoke and distinctive smell, and even vape pens, edibles—which can look just like regular candy and cookies—are almost impossible to spot. Colorado, like most states, has an age limit for the sale of cannabis products, including edibles—21 for recreational use, 18 with a medical marijuana card. Yet it is fairly easy for high-schoolers to get them from older siblings and friends. One standard unit of THC is 5 milligrams, as defined by the National Institute on Drug Abuse. But one candy bar or cookie could include 10 doses, says Staci Gruber, director of the Marijuana Investigations for Neuroscientific Discovery (MIND) program at McLean Hospital in Massachusetts. And the way that eaten THC is processed by the liver increases its psychoactive properties, Dr. Gruber says. The high also lasts longer than from inhaling.

So, we have a new wrinkle, or should I say new snack, in marijuana issues in the U.S. The 2021 story in the Wall Street Journal in People Are Using Marijuana to Treat Anxiety and Depression, but the Science Is Murky put it this way:

More people are turning to cannabis to alleviate mental health problems like anxiety and depression, as well as insomnia, psychologists and researchers say. Yet the science on cannabis as a mental-health treatment is in its infancy—and some evidence suggests that marijuana can make these problems worse.

The legal part of U.S. marijuana industry is big business, with $13 billion in 2019 sales and over 340,000 jobs. Some may use cannabidiol or CBD oil. An Investopedia in The Future of the Marijuana Industry in America talks about the money aspect and the use:

Cannabidiol, a natural compound found in cannabis plants that is non-psychoactive. This means it doesn’t make the consumer high. CBD is sold as an ingredient in oils, oral sprays, creams, pills, or edibles like gummies and lollipops. Purveyors claim CBD can provide relief from pain, combat anxiety, and depression. It’s even been linked to helping people living with cancer.

The Department of Agriculture published FDA Regulation of Cannabis and Cannabis-Derived Products, Including Cannabidiol (CBD), the federal allowance for the production of cannabis derivatives that are under a threshhold level:

The plant Cannabis sativa L. and any part of that plant, including the seeds thereof and all derivatives, extracts, cannabinoids, isomers, acids, salts, and salts of isomers, whether growing or not, with a delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol concentration of not more than 0.3 percent on a dry weight basis. These changes include removing hemp from the CSA, which means that cannabis plants and derivatives that contain no more than 0.3 percent THC on a dry weight basis are no longer controlled substances under federal law.

The bottom line is that various cannabis derivatives under 0.3 percent THC are legal at the federal level. While marijuana use is illegal at the federal level, many states have legalized its use.

What position should your church take on employees using marijuana, CBD oil and edibles? A good starting place is to relate cannabis and its derivatives to the use of alcohol. If you have a policy that church leaders are not to use alcohol, you could have a policy banning the use of marijuana, as it has psychoactive effects. This assumes that marijuana is legal in your state. This prohibition should include the new category of edibles. If your church allows alcohol use at home or restaurants, or is silent on the subject, you could have a policy that no recreational use of marijuana or edibles be used. This position may seem inconsistent to some, since the use may be legal in your state. You could ban the use at youth events, such as, no leader may drink an alcoholic beverage or use any cannabis product at a youth event.

Asking church leaders not to use CBD is an interesting gray line. Products with under 0.3% THC are legal according to the FDA. While marijuana is illegal at the federal level, low level CBD is not. Again, if your church has a moral perspective on CBD, you can include a prohibition in your code of conduct. That prohibition may be challenged by various church leaders, citing that other federally allowed items are not likewise prohibited. Whatever position you take, your church policies should apply your code of conduct to all leaders, not just to staff. By doing this, you include groups such as youth leaders and board members.

A concern in the question is the youth pastor and his family. They are openly talking about their use of CBD. Let’s compare this to alcohol and tobacco. Although both are legal, it is unwise to advocate their use to minors. The youth pastor is open and advocating the use of CBD. As an authority figure, the youth pastor should be careful about what he and his family promote to the youth group. This is why some churches allow alcohol use but not in public places, such as restaurants, where youth can see them drink. This is a wisdom issue similar to adult-themed movies—the reader should determine what constitutes as adult-themed, whether it be by the ratings of R, NC-17 or TV-MA, or by sexual, verbal or violent content. While staff may or may not watch these shows and movies at home, it may be unwise to cite them in sermons or advocate watching them.

Aside from medical use, you can ask and enforce that marijuana, edibles or its derivatives not be used. You can ban their use on the church property, while working or driving. You can do drug testing as equitable enforced, especially for anyone using machinery or driving for the church. You can ask staff not to publicize to minors their personal views on marijuana and its derivatives. For the youth pastor, the bottom line is one of wisdom. What is allowable for adults is not necessarily beneficial for minors. It may be legal to use CBD oil, but is it wise to share that with minors? Should we allow a youth pastor to speak publicly on a gray area?

Internships

Hey David … Do you have anything on internships? What should we expect out of an intern and what expectations are there for me as the Student Pastor?

We don’t have much in the way of job descriptions. I don’t know why, as over the years we have had so many paid and non-paid interns. The best practice is, if you use the term “intern” then make it a learning internship. If the situation is really “unpaid labor” or “cheep and abused labor” then expect trouble sometime in the future. Have a clearly defined role description. Pay a fair wage and don’t expect free overtime (as in, that’s illegal). Teach, instruct and mentor the intern. Give them lots of hand-on experiences.

Discounts on Church Retreats

Hey Fletch … We are thinking of offering all staff who work 32 hours a week or more discounts to church retreats and functions for which there is a charge. My question is, does the exclusion outlined in IRS 15b apply? It says: “Employee Discounts—This exclusion applies to a price reduction you give your employee on property or services you offer to customers in the ordinary course of the line of business in which the employee performs substantial services. However, it doesn’t apply to discounts on real property or discounts on personal property of a kind commonly held for investment (such as stocks or bonds).”

You cited IRS Publication 15-B, “Employer’s Tax Guide to Fringe Benefits.” That publication also mentions “Employee Stock Options.” God takes care of stock options but they are only paid in heaven. The IRS does not have jurisdiction there! Humor, trace. Publication 15-B says, “You can generally exclude the value of an employee discount you provide an employee from the employee’s wages, up to the following limits: For a discount on services, 20% of the price you charge nonemployee customers for the service.”

There are some caveats to it, and this one may apply to your staff executive leadership: “You can’t exclude from the wages of a highly compensated employee any part of the value of a discount that isn’t available on the same terms to one of the following groups.” If you are giving a discount of 20% or less to any employee, it is non-taxable. If the discount is more than 20%, then the phrase that the IRS uses of “substantial services,” will need clarification from a tax expert. Let me reach out to non-profit CPA Mike Batts of Batts Morrison Wales & Lee. Mike is a nationally-noted expert; let’s get some clarification on that phrase.

Mike Batts—The nontaxable fringe benefit rule that your reader is referring to is the “qualified employee discount” exclusion found in Internal Revenue Code Section 132(a)(2). Under this rule, an employer can generally exclude from an employee’s wages the value of an employee discount of up to 20% of the price charged to nonemployee customers for the same service.

An employee discount provided to “highly compensated” employees is nontaxable only if the discount program does not discriminate in favor of highly compensated employees. In other words, the discount given to highly compensated employees should not be more favorable than that given to other employees. For this purpose, the term “highly compensated employee” generally refers to individuals whose total compensation exceeds $120,000. This is the amount applicable to 2018 and it is indexed annually for inflation. Note that for this purpose, the compensation used in determining whether an individual is highly compensated is the compensation of the prior year. The definition of “compensation” varies depending on the circumstances, but it generally does not include a validly designated clergy housing allowance within allowable limits.

As far as the “substantial services” question, unfortunately, neither the Internal Revenue Code nor the related Regulations provide a definition or “bright-line” test for what constitutes “substantial services.” However, the Regulations do indicate that an employee who performs substantial services that directly benefit more than one line of business of an employer is treated as performing substantial services in all such lines of business. In our experience, we believe it is likely that all of the ministry activities of a traditional church taken together would comprise a single line of business for purposes of this fringe benefit rule. In practicality, churches rarely consider their employees to work in separate lines of business as that concept would be applied to this issue.

Policy on Physical & Verbal Misconduct

Hey Fletch … I am doing research to update our policy manual and personnel handbook. What policies can you point me to that pertain to allegations toward a staff person about physical, verbal or safety improprieties?

Do a search on XPastor for “allegations.” What you will find is various statements of how each church will investigate allegations of misconduct. Learn from these. Craft a policy that is clear. Set a process of how incidents are to be reported, who will investigate them and how the issue will be handled.

Parma Heights says: “Parma Heights Baptist Church has instituted the following three-step procedure for reporting and investigating allegations of unlawful harassment, including sexual harassment.”

Foothills Christian Church says: “All incidents of prohibited harassment that are reported will be investigated. The church will immediately undertake or direct an effective, thorough, and objective investigation of the harassment allegations. The investigation will be completed and a determination regarding the reported harassment will be made and communicated to the staff member who complained and to the accused harasser(s). If the church determines that prohibited harassment has occurred, the church will take effective immediate action commensurate with the circumstances. Appropriate action will also be taken to deter any future harassment. If a complaint of prohibited harassment is substantiated, appropriate disciplinary action, up to and including discharge, will be taken. Whatever action is taken against the harasser will be communicated to the staff member who complained.”

Seven Mile Road Church says: “When we receive the complaint, we will promptly investigate the allegation in a fair and expeditious manner. The investigation will be conducted in such a way as to maintain confidentiality to the extent practicable under the circumstances. Our investigation will include a private interview with the person filing the complaint and with witnesses. We will also interview the person alleged to have committed sexual harassment. When we have completed our investigation, we will, to the extent appropriate, inform the person filing the complaint and the person alleged to have committed the conduct of the results of that investigation.” If it is determined that inappropriate conduct has occurred, we will act promptly to eliminate the offending conduct, and where it is appropriate we will also impose disciplinary action.”

I would add to these a policy on when an external investigator should be used. Several churches have attempted internal investigations of sexual misconduct, only to find that their work was flawed.

Overtime for Preschool Teachers

Hey Fletch … Our church has a preschool with part-time teachers. We have been treating them as exempt employees, as they are teachers. They don’t get paid for working after hours, home visits or for the Christmas play rehearsals. Are we legal?

In a word, “probably not. You are probably not legal.” Generally preschool teachers are not seen in the same category as credentialed teachers. The topic has been widely debated and the Department of Labor has a document about preschool teachers. “Preschool Teachers: Bona fide teachers in preschool and kindergarten settings may qualify for exemption from the minimum wage and overtime pay requirements as “professionals” under the same conditions as a teacher in an elementary or secondary school. Teachers are exempt if their primary duty is teaching, tutoring, instructing or lecturing in this activity as a teacher in educational establishment. It should be noted that, although a preschool may engage in some educational activities, preschool employees whose primary duty is to care for the physical needs for the facility’s children would ordinarily not meet the requirements for exception as teachers under the applicable regulations.”

This is an interesting paragraph. At the end, we see that exemption is rare for preschool teachers. I suppose if all your teachers had state certificates in preschool education, they could be considered professional. A preschool had to pay over $92,000 in back wages and fines for not paying hourly rates and overtime. The article noted: “The FLSA has an overtime exemption for teachers at elementary or secondary schools. The day-care center did not qualify as an elementary or secondary school. Although its employees were classified as teachers, they still were eligible for FLSA overtime compensation.”

Another article talks about the duties test of teachers: “You must also pass one of the duties tests. The law exempts people who meet certain qualifications in their duties as a professional, executive or administrator … In most states, licensed teachers who teach in a qualified educational institution are considered exempt employees, not subject to overtime pay. The key word here is licensed. Under the professional test, an employee must1) perform work requiring advanced knowledge 2) in a field of science or learning and 3) acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction. A licensed teacher who teaches kindergarten or nursery school, disabled children or skilled and semi-skilled trades, meets the duties test of the professional exemption.

Unless there are new wrinkles in the regulations (which may happen) I would recommend reclassifying your preschool teachers as non-exempt. They need to track their hours, take meal and rest breaks, as well as follow other FLSA exemptions. You will need to give back-pay to teachers who have worked at home, done overtime, or helped in rehearsals for the Christmas play.

Exempt Hourly Pay?

Hey Fletch … Thank you for your earlier response to my question about how our church is paying salaried people for the number of hours worked. My church leaders are insisting we hired someone as an exempt hourly employee. We therefore do not need to pay them a fixed amount per paycheck but rather the hours they have worked. At this point I am about to drop the issue as it’s not my place to push further and I do not have the experience or education to back up my concerns. Can you explain to me what an exempt hourly employee is?

From my perspective, I don’t see that hourly employees can have their base pay reduced for the number of hours worked in a week. There could be a base pay of the federal minimum, plus other compensation … and that is getting into some fine distinctions in the law. Basing that on hours would be a creative and borderline decision.

The DOL is clear on how exempt employees are to be paid. They say: “Generally, an employee is paid on a salary basis if s/he has a “guaranteed minimum” amount of money s/he can count on receiving for any work week in which s/he performs “any” work.” This amount need not be the entire compensation received, but there must be some amount of pay the employee can count on receiving in any work week in which s/he performs any work. Some “rules of thumb” indicating that an employee is paid on a salary basis include whether an employee’s base pay is computed from an annual figure divided by the number of paydays in a year, or whether an employee’s actual pay is lower in work periods when s/he works fewer than the normal number of hours. However, whether an employee is paid on a salary basis is a “fact,” and thus specific evaluation of particular circumstances is necessary. Whether an employee is paid on a salary basis is not affected by whether pay is expressed in hourly terms (as this is a fairly common requirement of many payroll computer programs), but whether the employee in fact has a “guaranteed minimum” amount of pay s/he can count on. … Similarly, paying an employee more than the guaranteed salary amount is not normally inconsistent with salary basis status, because this does not result in any reduction in the base pay. With some exceptions, the base pay of a salary basis employee may not be reduced based on the “quality or quantity” of work performed (provided that the employee does “some” work in the work period). This usually means that the base pay of a salary basis employee may not be reduced if s/he performs less work than normal, if the reason for that is determined by the employer. Thus, there can be “permissible” and “impermissible” reductions in salary basis pay. Permissible reductions have no effect on the employee’s exempt status. Impermissible reductions may, in that the general rule is that an employee who is subjected to impermissible reductions in salary is no longer paid on a salary basis, and is therefore nonexempt.

Perhaps your church is paying exempt staff with a base pay of the federal minimum and calculating hours over that as extra compensation. While it may be legal, I would be uncomfortable with that. What you can do is to show the leaders the DOL pages, let your CPA know of the issues, and serve well!

Paying Minors

Hey Fletch … Quick question for you. What is the best way to pay teenage minors who do occasional child care work for the church?

Whether they are occasional or not, you need to follow federal and state regulations. If the church pays them, then you have liability for their work, so that’s one issue. As I recall, California allows minors to work, but need a permit. I researched and found this article from the California Department of Industrial Relations: Labor Commissioner’s Office will help. It lays out “Information on Minors and Employment.”

The article says: “Except in limited circumstances defined in law and summarized in the child labor law booklet, all minors under 18 years of age employed in the state of California must have a permit to work. Prior to permitting a minor to work, employers must possess a valid permit to employ and work. The permit to employ and work are issued on the same form.” Make sure that you have a permit to hire minors. I don’t see any exemptions for churches here! Be careful, dot all your “i’s” and cross all your “t’s”. They will be tough on you if the regs aren’t followed! Talk to a labor relations professional or attorney as needed. I would also strongly suggest that if you hire a minor, they should be paired with an adult. You do not want to have two minors supervise children or other youth.

Housing

Housing in a High Cost of Living Area

Hey Fletch … I was at the Smart Money for Church Salaries workshop in Washington DC. Michael Martin from the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability suggested I ask you a question that he and I were discussing. On pastoral compensation, do you have any good resources for helping pastors with a house down payment, especially in high cost of living areas? Or any churches that you know that do this well?

There are many ways which churches use to help pastors: For new staff, some churches do a signing bonus. This is taxable income but can help get a pastor into a home. For existing staff, some churches do a 4-year forgivable loan. This may provide some or all of the down payment for a house. It is, again, taxable income. As each year’s interest and principle is forgiven, the pastor pays tax on just that part. If the pastor leaves before the end of the loan, the remainder of the loan can be repaid to the church. Some churches become co-owners with the pastor. This is complicated and has lots of issues with it. Some churches give a supplement to the pay of certain pastors to help with buying a home. This is essentially extra taxable income so they can own a home close to the church. The benefit of doing this is that it separates out regular pay from a home ownership allowance. For the second and third options, consult an attorney to see what is legal and workable in your state.

Housing in a High Cost of Living Area

Hey Fletch … Can you share insight into how churches in affluent areas are handling housing costs, especially for new staff members who move into the area? Here in our region, the median home price is $1,000,000. This has made it especially difficult to hire folks who are new to this crazy real estate market. I imagine you may have dealt with this and wondered if you know how other churches are handling it. Loans? Signing bonuses? Equity share? Lottery? Thanks for any insight you might be able to provide.

There are several parts of the country where your question literally “hits close to home.” Ugh, what a groaner of a pun. Some churches in California have a joint ownership program. The pastor puts up a percentage of the down payment and the church puts up the same. This can make it possible to buy a house. As co-owners, questions arise. What about repairs and renovations? If the pastor and church are 50% owners, does a committee represent the church if the pastor wants to add a new roof or another bedroom? You can see how co-ownership can get dicey.

Loans are interesting. There are some states that have laws about any incorporated entity loaning money—and California has some rules about this, but I don’t know about your state. Bottom line, before doing a loan, check with an attorney. Issues need to be ironed out in advance. What happens when the pastor retires, resigns or is fired? Do they have to sell their house immediately? If the pastor becomes a “pastor emeritus” can he live in the house until he dies? Will the church then force the new widow or widower to pay back the loan or sell the home? Does the church have a second mortgage and will the primary lender allow this? Many lenders want a church loan to be a personal loan and not tied to the mortgage.

Common housing issues in high profile areas: Few churches do a signing bonus of a significant amount to help buy a house; Some churches increase salaries to help with local cost of living issues. They use national scales to understand how much housing costs are for their area; Some pastors live in apartments; Some families save for years before buying a house; Some churches loan money or are becoming co-owners but this is dwindling due to the complexities involved.

Many churches overlook this area. “It’s the pastor’s problem.” In this scenario, only senior staff, or young staff with spouses in lucrative professional positions, can afford a house. Many families are dual income. One spouse’s income pays the mortgage and the other pays for everything else. Without working through the issues in advance, these scenarios can be spelled u-g-l-y. Another option is to only hire young, single men and women. Put money into a high profile dating website where only well-screened, rich folks can date your staff. Humor, trace.

Response—This is so helpful. Thanks for your thoughtful and thorough response. It’s certainly a difficult question that we haven’t landed on yet. This helps inform our conversation about it. I’ll let you know if we arrive at the “perfect solution.”

HR Policies

Hey Fletch … Do you have toolbox of what are the most essential Human Resources policies to have?

That’s a big question and it changes as time goes by. Unfortunately, there are many policies that a church should have. Society has become more and more complex, with rules promulgating like rabbits. A good list of HR policies will include discussion of: ; Equal opportunity employment, including how the church hires people of like faith; New hire process; The Fair Labor Standards Act and exemptions; Ministerial exemption; Hiring; Immigration law. Work and workplace; Standards of conduct; Intellectual property and work for hire; Conflict of interest; Safety and health; Record keeping of hours for non-exempt workers; Access to records and medical information; Performance evaluations. Employee benefits and conduct; Vacation; Sexual misconduct; Disciplinary procedures; Grievance procedures Check out examples of staff policies on this page.

Update from Fletch—I had a similar question come up in the New XP Workshop from the XP-Seminar. I asked Perplexity AI to “give an overview of the HR policies for an evangelical church.” Perplexity gave a good summary of policies to include, with citations. I would also talk to an HR expert in your state as every state can have unique variances—for example, some states require training to prevent sexual harassment. Also, I would talk to the folks at HRMinistry Solutions.

Reviews, Rest & Staff Issues

SP Sabbatical & Staff Roles

Hey Fletch … After 60 years of our church’s history, 28 years on the pastoral staff, our leadership has granted a 12-week sabbatical for our Senior Pastor. We have the material and suggestions on how he and we should approach the sabbatical to benefit him most. My question is, do you have any suggestions on how we as leadership should approach this time with the absence? Any best ways for all (XP, other Pastors, Board members, Ministry leaders and all congregants) to “step up” to fill the gap with inspiration and practicality? What is the best perspective and communication to encourage all to make this a time to move forward and not just hold on and get by? Thanks for your thoughts.

It is terrific that your church is offering a sabbatical. This is a great opportunity for a pastor to regroup and get recharged for more ministry. Let me share some of XPastor’s articles on the topic: I wrote a case study, Sabbatical: Siesta, Study or Sayonara?. Chuck Olson wrote, Get the Most From Your Sabbatical. Rick Finitzer has, The Spiritual Benefits of a Sabbatical—For the Servant and the Kingdom. Gary Mayes wrote, Sabbatical On-Ramps and Off-Ramps. Westminster Church of the Nazarene shared their policy.

As to your questions: Have the Senior Pastor create three to five bullets on how he will invest the time. Since this is the preaching pastor, decide who will be filling that role. Since it is 12 weeks, you could have folks on staff do this and get some guest speakers. Other staff will have to “step up” as you say. Again, 12 weeks is pretty doable. You as XP can run point for that period of time. You don’t want to communicate to staff or the congregation that this is a holding pattern, nor do you want to start any new initiatives that the SP hasn’t been a part of. Have good communication with the congregation of ministries stories—share what is happening in the church.

Staff Reviews

Hey Fletch … I am a new XP to the church I serve and staff evaluations are coming up. My previous experiences at churches are either too formal (a graded scale, points assigned to tasks, overly specific goals) or too relaxed (“so, how did the last year go, Bob?”). Do you have a template or resource to help me frame staff evals this fall?

It has been a busy season and I have been thinking about your questions. For some articles, check out the XPastor articles on Reviews. Quantitative reviews are those which score employees on a series of questions. They ask the supervisor to give a rating, generally from one to ten, on a series of questions. The questions cover topics like: participation in the church vision, progress in ministry, morale, initiative, team spirit, development of ministry projects, etc. The results are added and a score is given, such as 78% or 88%.

Qualitative reviews ask open-ended questions. They have the staff member give longer answers, generally written before the time together. These answers can be three to ten lines long, or even longer. They ask the staff member to share about the inner workings, challenges and successes in ministry. After the paperwork is done, a sixty to ninety minute discussion is held with the individual. My preference is to do regular qualitative reviews. Sometimes, every fourth year or so, a quantitative review might be used, as a way of getting at different issues. The goal is to get inside the staff person’s head, to hear their thoughts and see how they can be motivated to do better ministry—or applauded for a job well done.

Staff Review of a Friend

Hey Fletch … I have a dilemma. It’s a strange problem and I’m struggling with it. As the XP, I am both a close friend and supervisor to a staff member. As a friend, I don’t want to say some things that need to be said. As a supervisor, I need the person to improve. See my problem?

I hear you on this. The problem can be sourced in our modern definition of a friend. We often think of friends as those who we enjoy being with, tell us what we want to hear and have a good time hanging out with. Two of those are fine things. The “telling us what we want to hear,” is the source of your issue. Proverbs 27:6 says “Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are excessive” (NET Bible). The ancient words have direct application to your situation. Your fear is that if you wound a friend, that you will lose them. Fear is holding you back from sharing your thoughts as a supervisor.

In truth, you are in a great place to speak to your friend. You know them and they trust you. What you share may be the first time that they hear a challenging perspective about their role or performance. A true friend will share those things, whether they are their supervisor or not. I would suggest that you have a gentle, yet firm, conversation with your friend and subordinate. Ask God for wisdom for the right words before the discussion. When together, convey your fear about what you are going to share. Let them know that because of your friendship and love for them, that you are willing to risk the conversation. Give plenty of positives about them and their role, then share your concerns. Listen for their response and schedule a followup conversation. Pray with them.

Managing People Drains Me

Hey Fletch … As a pastor, managing people drains me. It sucks. It’s a skill that no one wants to do—a real pain. I don’t want to be the bad guy, like the staff person who said to me, “You are riding me about how I’m not performing.” All this makes me feel like I’m boiling inside.

We all have different gifts. Your words and thoughts share that managing people is not one of them. From our conversation, I know that you are strong in other things, like relational skills and shepherding. Very few people are strong at both relational counseling and managerial leadership. When we work outside of our giftedness, several things happen. We work slower. Things just take more time to do well. It uses more energy. Doing the same job as a gifted person can take much more energy. It takes more concentration. You are not skilled in the area so you must focus on the task. You can’t “drive with one hand,” but must keep both hands on the wheel and both eyes firmly glued on the road ahead. We can come across as cranky and irritable. The work is hard and not enjoyable. It is terra incognita. With all the energy being diverted to the task, we don’t have spare resources to be kind, gentle or sociable.

Here are some ways to improve: Affirm that others are good at managing others and that this is not a part of your giftedness. When in a management conversation, apologize in advance that how you come across may not be at your best. “Hey, talking about your performance is not easy for me, so bear with me if I don’t say everything as well as I should.” Lean into your natural gifts. When the person said, “you are riding me,” use your natural relational strengths to reply. “I’m sorry that you feel that way, but your issues are affecting the entire team. We need harmony on the team and need to resolve the issues.” As you do more managerial leadership, the skills will get easier to use. You may never enjoy the conversations. Like improving your golf swing, you can improve!

Staff Feel

Hey David … We are wanting to get a feel for how our staff is doing. What can you suggest? We want to understand how our staff feel and get a handle on our staff culture.

I know an XP who just did a survey with the Best Christian Workplaces Institute. They got plenty of useful data points from the survey. It was incredibly helpful for them. Take a look at their site and see if it is a fit for you. We posted an article on XPastor from William Vanderbloemen on ‘Creating an Irresistible Workplace.’ That is a must read article, excerpted from his book, Culture Wins: The Roadmap to an Irresistible Workplace.

An Exciting Invitation

Hey Doc … This is a big one. I have some obligations next week at church and they can’t be moved. But now I just received an exciting out-of-town invitation with an important person in our church. What should I do?

Jesus said, “ἔστω δὲ ὁ λόγος ὑμῶν ναὶ ναί, οὒ οὔ.” I’m giving you Matthew 5:37 in Greek because the truth it is like a foreign truth to us. The translation is: Let your ‘yes’ be ‘yes’ and your ‘no,’ ‘no.’ If you have made obligations, and can’t in good conscience cancel them, then you must keep them. Tell the important person that your ‘yes’ is a ‘yes,’ that you gave your word. Psalm 15:4 says, “Make a firm commitment and do not renege on your promise” or, “keeps your word even when it hurts.” It hurts to not do the exciting thing. It will hurt you more to dishonor your commitments. The right kind of people will see that you honor your word. They will want to hang out with you and extend more invitations in the future.

Four Wall Discussions

Hey Fletch … I’ve heard you use the term “four wall discussions.” Could you define that for me?

I call certain meetings “four-wall discussions” to signify that what is said should stay in the four walls of the room. A profane equivalent is “what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.” Here is what you do with a church team. Lay out the ground rules that every comment is fair game in the discussion. In a four-wall discussion, people can vent. They can share insecurities and pain. They can be ‘wrong’ on an issue. Team members can explore unorthodox and unusual options. If you can’t do that with a trusted team, who can you talk with? When someone crosses the line and harsh words are spoken, amends need to be made. Often after a meeting, I have seen team members go to another and bring gentle confrontation. At the next team meeting, the offender makes an apology—and the team is healthier. That is a four-wall discussion at work. Nothing is final until the team hears the words, “decision made.” Then, everyone needs to support that decision.

No Clue on Reviews

Hey Fletch … Our church doesn’t have a clue about how to do reviews. We want to review our Elders, Senior Pastor and staff. Can you help us?

The place to begin on reviewing any role is with a good role description. Few churches have this for elders though! For job descriptions of Elders and staff, see this page. For reviews, see this page. Start simple. Get a good role description and review based on that.

Feedback from Attendees

Hey Fletch … We are attempting to develop some type of post-ministry evaluation form for the purpose of getting feedback from attendees of selected ministries or outreach events. Do you all have any samples of this type of document?

Nice to hear from you and what a great looking website your church has … clean, easy to read, informative! Let me applaud you for wanting metrics from attendees of events. These are “leading indicators” of how a church is doing. There is a great article in the KPI library on Lagging and Leading Indicators. In it is this illustration: “For many of us a personal goal is weight loss. A clear lagging indicator that is easy to measure. You step on a scale and you have your answer. But how do you actually reach your goal? For weight loss there are two “leading” indicators: 1) Calories taken in and, 2) Calories burned. These two indicators are easy to influence but very hard to measure. When you order lunch in a restaurant the amount of calories is not listed on the menu. And if you are me, you have no clue how many calories you burn on a given day.”

In the church, counting how many people are at an event is a lagging indicator. You are going for the gold, the leading indicator. This is the metric of “what did those people experience when they were at the event.” Generally, paper response forms don’t work but they do litter your campus. An electronic response form on the free SurveyMonkey might get some answers. Likert scale responses (“1” is low and “7” is high, pick one) are quick response mechanisms that can give good data. The best data is the first person response, “I went to the event with my family and I was a little nervous bringing our young kids. Everyone made it so easy for us in the nursery and we enjoyed the marriage seminar.”

The best responses that I have received are email based. After an event, try sending out an email to the attendees. Make it short and simple. Only ask for feedback in the email, with no pitch for future events. Select open ended questions, such as: 1) What was a high point for you at the event? 2) What could we do to better next time? 3) What three words come to your mind about the presentation at the event? Let me know what you decide to do.

I’m Tired

Hey Fletch … I’ve been in my role at the church a long time. I suppose that I’m a little tired … never had a sabbatical or taken much of my vacation time … I wonder if someone else may have a fresh persecutive and take this ministry to the next level. Thoughts?

You sound tired and war weary. Slogging through the mud everyday takes it out of a soldier. You sound like you need a rest break. Ministry is hard. The weight of spiritual responsibility for hundreds or thousands of people is heavy. You may be running a sprint when you should be pacing yourself for a marathon. Perhaps if you left now, it would be like the soldier who went AWOL—absent without leave. The church may need a fresh perspective and the ministry may need to go to the next level. However, blaming that on a tired soldier is the equivalent of shooting our wounded.

You need to take responsibility for your part in being a war-weary soldier. Your church offers a sabbatical and you chose not to take it. Your church gave you four weeks vacation and you only used less than half of that. I strongly recommend that you come clean and admit your workaholic actions to your board and staff. By the way, they already know it as your life has been demonstrating it for the last decade. Admit that it was wrong not to take a godly sabbath rest. Take the sabbath rest from your work. Enjoy the relaxation that God has provided for you. Once you have had a good rest, then ask the same questions. You may find that the soldier is ready to reengage in the spiritual war. You may find that your own workaholic actions put your ministry in peril.

Maxed Out

Hey Prof … I’m about maxed out in my job at church. I’m putting in 65 hours a week and still not getting it all done. My wife is fussing at me all the time. Help!

We all hit ceilings of competency. This is when our current skills take us to the limit of what we can humanly do. Working more hours will be like a hamster on a treadmill. You won’t get any more work done and only frustrate yourself, your family and ministry. Get with a friend, ministry colleague or coach. For two weeks, keep a detailed calendar of how you are investing your time. Review that with your mentor. What is it that only you can do and what can you give to others? Generally, pastors fail at doing Ephesians 4, “equipping the saints for ministry.” Pastors tend to do ministry by themselves and fail to build strong and empowered teams around them. You will find that as the team leads ministry with you, that you will break through the ceiling of competency. Team members will go with you to new levels of effectiveness.

Mentally Dying

Hey Fletch … I’ve been a pastor for 15 years and I’m mentally dying. I’m at a place of intellectual stagnation. What can I do to get out of my muddle?

Perhaps the first 10 years of ministry were a challenge. Everything was new. You had plenty of ideas from seminary. Some of them worked and some did not. Then you began to coast. You knew what to do to have a good ministry. It thrived but you had lost the challenge. What should you do now?

First, improve your intake of material. Cut down your social media by 50%. Invest that time in reading. Read for pleasure and read for content. Don’t read only websites and news media that you agree with. Find 10 stimulating websites that offer radically different opinions than the ones you hold. Let them challenge you to “explain in a new way what you really believe.” Read books that are out of your genre—science fiction, the classics, mysteries, poetry and plays. You are in a rut because the wagon wheels have been using the same road for a long time. Get out of the rut and think widely. In what you take in, process it through a Christo-logical lens. What do the gospels say about what you are reading?

Second, improve your out-take of material. Talk to people who are readers and learners. Write articles that have meaning and depth. Share with others what you are learning. When you speak in church, salt it with some of the outside sources that you are reading. Integrate the complexities of society into your messages. If you don’t overwhelm people and sound like an ivory tower academic, people will respond! Let me know how it goes! Carpe Diem.

Gaining Weight

Hey Fletch … This one is rather personal. Your column is a safe place for me to ask it. I have been gaining weight. Often I am at breakfast and lunch meetings, then want to have quality time with my family at dinner. All I do is eat and it is showing!

I hear you on this. Ministry makes good weight control harder for the reasons that you gave. John Reed, the former head of the D.Min. Department at Dallas Seminary once said, “I lost weight by not going back for seconds and limiting desserts.” Get an app for your phone and track everything that you eat for a month. By tracking the calories that you consume, it may motivate you to eat less. Let me ask another question, are you exercising? Pastors are in a stress-filled environment. Exercise will reduce your stress and burn those calories. Get your heart rate above 100 beats per minute for 30 minutes a day—watch television while you exercise! Get an Apple Watch as a tool to measure your exercise. You may want to talk to your doctor before beginning an exercise program. Do it today!

If Feels Like a Job

Hey Fletch … I feel like I’m a paid, professional Christian. I work in a church as a pastor and it is feeling like a job. The joy is beginning to fade away. Help!

You are a full-time, vocational Christian leader. Pastoral work can be grueling. Emails and texts come at all hours. Weekends can get eaten up in ministry activities. You are engaged in a spiritual battle of enormous proportions. Huge numbers of people rely on you for guidance, shepherding, leadership and care.

Here’s a suggestion. Find some areas where you can be “John or Jane Doe.” Have some fun in areas where you can be with people who are not in your congregation. I like to do this with scuba diving. There is a tight camaraderie among scuba divers. You have to trust and rely on your diving partner. Underwater, no one talks to me! I get to enjoy the great world that God created. After the dive, we talk about the recent dive and past dives. You are paid to be a Christian leader but are not a professional Christian. Enjoy time with people who don’t see you in the church leadership role. It will help bring back joie de vivre—exuberant enjoyment of life.

Senior Pastor Review

Hey Fletch … Can you point me to resources Boards may use for setting up a system to evaluate the Senior Pastor?

The best place to start when considering a review of any staff member is their job description. This may beg the question, as often staff have out of date job descriptions. If the job description is out of date or incomplete, then begin with the review of that document. The job description for a pastor and subsequent review is harder than it sounds. Consider some of the issues:

What are we calling our Senior Pastor to do? Are they a manager, leader, a CEO, a shepherd, a preacher, evangelist, hospital chaplain and the congregation’s chief caregiver? In those eight areas there are many full-time jobs. Your church must carefully weigh what you expect the Senior Pastor to do. When you know what you want the Senior Pastor to do, then you need to consider how to measure the work. Some churches measure success by “nickels and noses,” which is people in the pews and more money in the coffers. Some churches measure success by spiritual growth and development in the congregation. Some churches measure success by the shepherding that happens, that people feel loved and cared for. Other churches measure success by the number of new people who have decided to follow Jesus.

Working harder and longer is not the answer, as you can read in this Hey Fletch column about a pastor working 65 hours a week. The answer is to work smarter on agreed-upon goals, which are then fairly evaluated. So, the first thing is for the Board to review itself. Have we, as a Board, given clear direction to the Senior Pastor? Then, have we held him accountable to the agreed upon role?

If the job description is current and well-represents the role, then evaluate the Senior Pastor based on that. Let me share with you review forms for the Senior Leadership from Mountain Springs Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado. These give another picture of talking with staff about personal and spiritual issues, as well as work performance. There are also two class sessions on reviews in XPastor’s free online course, Operations 101. Dan Reiland leads class 11 and Dr. Paul Utnage in class 5.

360 Reviews

Hey Fletch … Do you have any experience or connection with a church that has employed a 360 type evaluation of the Senior Pastor?

While I have done 360 reviews, I’m not an expert in them. Nathan Baxter has an article on XPastor, The Fun and Fright of a 360 Evaluation. He and I also did a webinar on 360 Reviews. In the article, Nathan writes: “What is a 360 performance evaluation? Technically speaking, it is an exercise where a leader receives anonymous feedback from those who work around him. This would include those in positions above, beside, and below. The process starts with each person, including the subject, answering a series of questions related to the various aspects of a leader’s primary responsibilities. The results are then put into a usable format. A professional coach then helps the leader interpret the results and develop a growth plan. This method of feedback is in contrast with the traditional, one-way feedback provided from supervisor to direct report.”

My experience has been mixed with 360 reviews. While anonymity is helpful for gaining an unvarnished opinion, people are unaccountable for their words. I like a 360 review that is accountable. We did a 360 a while back with a senior leader and I asked each staff member to personally share their input with the leader. That brought accountability and there was honest feedback. Let me ask Nathan Baxter to comment on this as 360 reviews are in his wheelhouse. After being a Senior Pastor and Executive Pastor for many years, he started the consulting group of Lead Self Lead Others.

Nathan—Using a 360 performance evaluation tool can be a very helpful exercise for some and dreadful for others. The key is whether or not the pastor being evaluated wants to be evaluated. The particular tool we use is very accurate and generates objective data on nine key leadership competencies for up to twenty participants including self, board, peers, direct reports, and others. If a pastor genuinely wants to know how they can become more effective in their leadership, then I would recommend the 360 performance evaluation experience.

Administrative Assistants

Hey Fletch … How do you treat administrative assistants?

Sometimes email can be remarkably incomplete. There must be a huge story behind your question. Let me share a couple of thoughts about this broad topic. All staff members are vital on the team. Whether they be a facility worker, administrative assistant or key pastor, each person needs to carry the vision and vibe of the church. Be fair and as generous as possible with compensation. Empower administrative assistants to do their job. Get their input when giving assignments; assistants often know more of the tactical details of ministry than some pastors. Listen to them. When you get their buy-in and motivation, a good assistant will take your ministry to the next level. A team moves at the speed of the leader. When you cast a compelling vision, people are driven to accomplish it.

Unclear Instructions

Hey Fletch … You are certified in the Myers Briggs Type Indicator, so let me ask this. As the Senior Pastor, I have an assistant who is an ISTJ. He often says that my instructions are not clear. How can I give better direction?

In MBTI lingo, the ISTJ is a logical, quiet, hard working, duty fulfiller. At 16personalities they introduce the person: The ISTJ personality type is thought to be the most abundant, making up around 13% of the population. Their defining characteristics of integrity, practical logic and tireless dedication to duty make ISTJs a vital core to many families, as well as organizations that uphold traditions, rules and standards, such as law offices, regulatory bodies and military.

Remember that each person is unique, and yet people share characteristics. The characteristics of most ISTJs make them ideal for guarding traditions, standard operating procedures and following the rules. Your strengths are intuition and feelings-values. You are a vision caster and deeply in touch with values. Those are admired by the ISTJ, but not their primary language. Be as concrete and detail-driven as possible with your ISTJ assistant. Spell out what you want and when. Give this person significant work that is standardized, i.e. “every Monday do this, Tuesday I need that done, schedule these meetings every ten days.” ISTJs excel in standard operating procedure.

Your tendency is to give more abstract directives. For example, you might say, “We need a way to make visitors at home in our church.” In your preferred language, that is clear, but not to the ISTJ. What you need to say is, “please research five other churches, get the details and “how to’s” of their hospitality programs, prepare a 5-page report and we will talk about it next Wednesday.” By doing this you are speaking the language that the ISTJ understands. You are giving direction that works well with their personality. When you set the “tradition” of what needs to be done, the ISTJ can embody and fulfill your vision.

Time Cards for Pastors

Hey Fletch … Are my people working hard enough? Should we use time cards for pastors?

This is similar to the above question about administrative assistants. People work incredibly hard when they have a compelling vision. When people speak into the tactics of implementing that vision, they work even harder. I am not a fan of having time cards for pastors. Pastors are exempt from FLSA regulations, so time cards are not required. Some churches use them but pastors tend to not fill them out very well.

There are two main ways to measure hard work. One is through monitoring time—this is like a time and motion study. If you are making cogs, you can measure how many cogs each employee makes in an hour. A better measure of hard work is by a qualitative analysis of the product. Through an in-print review and verbal dialogue, seek to answer these questions: Is the pastor fulfilling their job description? This requires a good job description that the pastor has agreed to! In that description, include percentages of time for the major categories. For example, the job description for a church evangelist might have 30% in doing evangelism, 30% in training others, 30% hands-on ministry and 10% meetings and office work.

Ask for stories and examples of how the pastor is fulfilling the job description. Hear what is going on in their ministry and how it fulfills the church vision. Understand whether the pastor has added new areas to their job or has areas that should be deleted. Many roles become bloated with seemingly important items while critical items go undone. Pastors want to work hard. They are driven by a gospel-centric desire to fulfill the Scriptures. Couple this drive with your church vision and hard work gets done.

Searching

No Response to Resume

Hey Fletch … I have an excellent black and white style business resume but I’m not getting much response. After looking at the Great Resumes on XPastor, I may know why. Are churches really looking for eye-catching photos, or do they prefer white paper with black text? Also, is my lack of experience also hurting me?

Churches are unique as the pastoral heart is coupled with the business brain. This means that a story-driven, graphically designed resume can be of great help in landing a new position. Black and white resumes are ideal for business but not for church. Pastors and hiring teams want to see communications ability, experience and great design. You want a resume that rises to the top of the pile. A church may get 100 resumes for a position and you want yours to be in the top 3 for consideration.

Didn’t Get the Job

Hey Fletch … I didn’t get the XP role. The church decided to go with an XP from a really large church. Do you have any thoughts for me as I’m stinging a bit?

Hang in there. The world hasn’t ended, yet. There is a sting when you were hoping to get a new job and it didn’t come through. Work through those stages of pain. God is abundantly present in our pain! It seems that the person they chose has more qualifications than you do … at present. It may be that the church needed someone with the skills of a mega-church. Your skills are currently at a mid-sized church. You have a good set of skills and have lots of ministry ahead of you in your lifetime. Keep working on your skills. Continue to apply for other open positions. Find a church that loves and appreciates the skills and experiences that you bring.

Not Getting the XP Role

Hey Fletch … After a long process, I learned that the church is not going to hire me as the XP. The are hiring someone else. The church wants to keep me in my existing role and I would report to the new XP. Should I stay?

As I have reflected on this, I would say, “yes, stay.” However, I would add some qualifications. You were treated well in the process. There were plenty of candid conversations about you and the XP role. The church listened to your desire and interacted with you. Count yourself as being treated well by the church. They talked, prayed and made a decision. Another plus is they acknowledged that your current ministry is going exceedingly well. This is a strong sign that the church understands the strengths that God has given you.

The challenge is that you wanted the XP role and the opportunity that comes with it. There is always disappointment that comes when not getting a ministry position. This makes it natural for you to ask your question about staying at the church. I would get to know the new XP. See what they bring into the position. See if you can work under them. Simultaneously, I would suggest that you have conversations with the church leadership about where they see that you need to grow to become an XP. They may have valid concerns, even blind spots, that you need to address. You may need to grow in both education and experience in the XP role. Perhaps over the next three to five years, you can expand your ministry profile. This could put you in a position to get an XP role at another church in the near future. Keep looking up and trusting God. Ask the hard questions and listen to what people are telling you.

Insider Got the Job

Hey Fletch … I was thinking about applying for the open XP role at our church. Then I found out the church quickly and quietly hired an insider. Is this typical?

I’m sorry that you didn’t get the change to apply for the position and possibly get an interview. If a church posts an open position, they should allow three to five weeks for people to apply. Otherwise, it makes people wonder, “Why did they post the open position?” This is exactly the question that you are asking.

The answers are complicated. Some churches have an insider who is interested but unsure of the role. When the job is posted, they see the full job description. This speeds up the dialogue and the person can be quickly hired. Other churches go through the formality of posting an open position, but already have a candidate in mind. I’m not a fan of this for the very reason of your question. The word “insider” is challenging. It can mean promoting an existing staff person or it can mean hiring a friend. You may want to have a conversation with a leader in your church about the hiring process. Ask straightforward questions and see what they have to say. It may make sense when you hear the whole story.

Seminary School

Hey Fletch … Seems it is quite hard to find a job at a church unless you have gone to Seminary school. I live in Austin, Texas. Is there a certain website I should be viewing to find ministry jobs?

A Seminary education can open doors, but it’s not a golden key. More than half of all church jobs come through networking. I would suggest that you talk to five local pastors. Ask to meet each one individually for 30 minutes and get to know their church. See if there is an internship that might give you more experience to build a solid resume. Check back with them quarterly so they see your long-term interest.

You might consider an online degree. Check out the 30-hour online degrees at Dallas Theological Seminary. I taught there for 20 years as an Adjunct Professor in the Doctor of Ministry program. If you want to meet for coffee sometime, I’m close to you. Let me have Scott Barfoot, the former Director of Doctor of Ministry Studies at Dallas Seminary also respond to your question:

Scott Barfoot—As you consider online seminary training and networking with pastors, ask about specific conferences related to your areas of ministry interest. For example, if you have an interest in serving as an executive pastor you might attend the XP-Seminar to learn more about leading in the church. A growing number of pastors and executive pastors hold secular degrees with little or no seminary education. Many feel called from the business and HR world to the local church. Others explore vocational ministry but God eventually confirms His call for them to remain in their secular work. Depending on the Lord’s leading, networking, conferences, certifications and seminary education are some ways to build a bridge toward more effective ministry in your current workplace, or in bi-vocational and full-time vocational ministry.

Management to XP

Hey Fletch … I have been in management for over 25 years and now feel God’s call to move into an Executive Pastor position. I would like your help with making my resume relevant to the church world versus the business world. Thanks for your help and I hope you have a blessed day.

The first thing that you should do is take a look at XPastor’s Great Resumes page. It will give some great advice for your resume. Then, after you have worked on it, send a copy to me. I will be pleased to give it a once over. A decade or two ago, multi-page resumes were the norm. That has shifted to one-page resumes. Many people have clickable links on their resume to a website that gives much more information. When you get to the point of sending out your resume, always send it in PDF. Never send it in MS Word, Google Docs or Apple Pages. These files may change your formatting when viewed on another computer.

Should I Be in Ministry?

Hey Fletch … I’m a millennial and working in a great job. The money is good, the business is fine and I’m learning a lot. Yet, I’m wondering how my life can have impact for God’s kingdom. What can I do to insure that in thirty years my life will have impact for God?

I love that you want to make an impact for God’s kingdom. That is right out of the gospels! The question is how and where to serve with the most impact. An article on Forbes notes about millennials: “They have made it clear that social impact is not only a want, but a need in their potential employers. If millennials aren’t motivated by money on the job hunt, they are often aiming to make the world a better place by working for companies that are compassionate, innovative and sustainable.” These are fantastic traits for any generation. The world needs more people who are actively bringing Christ to people’s needs.

A first step is to discover the gifts that God has given you. Great impact comes when you are using your gifts to serve others. You could quit your job now and work for a non-profit. The problem is that you may be trading one job for another that does not maximize your gifts. I’m thinking that you want impact with personal fulfillment. While you are in your job, discover what your gifts and desires are. You may be gifted as an entrepreneur, a disciple-maker or organizational leader—the list is endless. To discover how God has wired you, you might work with internationals in your community to see the challenges of language, culture and doing ministry while working. This would give you a taste for cross-cultural ministry. Try other ministry areas to see your giftedness. Discover what areas are both exciting and use your God-given gifts. This process could take several years of trying and testing various areas of service.

What you don’t want to do is to put your career on auto-pilot and buy into the money-making syndrome. That will lead to years of 60-hour work weeks that may have great monetary impact, but leave you feeling less than satisfied. At your age, you are just discovering where God might use your gifts and abilities. Enjoy the process. Keep your eye on where those things might be best used. Try lots of different ways to serve others.

Has God Called Me?

Hey Fletch … Question! What do you do, if you know God has called you but not sure what He is calling you to do? Moreover the person in question is careful not to embark on a mission he was not sent.

Greetings to you in Ghana. I so enjoy getting emails from Christian leaders outside of the United States. It is amazing to see the cultural differences and the ministry similarities. The Apostle Paul had an experience like yours. He wanted to go to Bithynia: “When they came to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them to do this, so they passed through Mysia and went down to Troas. A vision appeared to Paul during the night: A Macedonian man was standing there urging him, “Come to Macedonia and help us! After Paul saw the vision, he attempted immediately to go, thinking that God had called us to proclaim the good news to them.” Acts 16:7-10

The important words are “he attempted to.” God gives us great deal of motivation in the Gospels and wisdom in Proverbs. I assume that open doors are meant to be walked through. When I see an open door for ministry, I attempt to enter it. That is an act of obedience—the door is open, I can do a ministry and so I begin to walk. If God does not want you to enter that ministry, very soon He will close the door. Luke continues the story in Acts, “the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them to do this.”

Notice what comes next. Paul learns that God wanted him to be in the city of Rome: “and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of that district of Macedonia, a Roman colony … On the Sabbath we went outside the gate to the river, to a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had assembled there. Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, a God-fearing woman, listened. The Lord opened her heart to respond to what Paul said.” Acts 16:12-14. If you are moving, God can steer you. Go through those doors and God will either direct you elsewhere or open ministry to you. There is an old saying, “You can’t steer a ship that is tied to the pier.” God’s best to you as you respond to new opportunities to serve!

Leadership Development

Hey Fletch … Good morning! I am searching for a church that has leadership development as its culture and focus. I just finished a seminary degree in Virginia Beach and am wanting to make a transition to full-time ministry. I have a 30+ year career in government and public service. I’m a little stuck … any advice? I’m willing to relocate for the right opportunity.

If I understand you correctly, you are looking for a full-time position in leadership development, right? With more than thirty years in government and public service, I am sure that you have plenty of experience in working with organizations and developing people. There are three ways to find a ministry position. The first is through networking. Perhaps half of all ministry jobs come through the network of your contacts. Developing a solid network takes time. You may want to ask the leaders of your church and your seminary professors for contacts. Talk to those contacts and get secondary, then tertiary contacts. I knew one person who did a several week road trip, talking to his network and their networks. He had three job offers in a couple of months!

The second way of finding a church position is through online job boards. To help folks like you, XPastor has a listing of major job boards and we also have a list of open church leadership positions. Often these leads put you into direct contact with the churches themselves. Make sure that you have a great looking resume. Check out the XPastor page of great resumes for some examples. The third way to find a ministry position is through a search firm. Slingshot and Vanderbloemen are the largest firms that help folks find church positions. On the XPastor job boards page, you can find their web addresses. Follow their procedures for sending in your resume and getting connected to their staff. Let me ask Monty Kelso, President of Slingshot, to respond:

Response from Monty Kelso—David is spot-on regarding your best options seeking church ministry employment. I would add that the area of ministry that you are pursuing is one of great importance. Everyone is talking about leadership development these days. However, I know that very few churches actually hire executive leadership for the specific focus of leadership development only. In fact, in the eleven years that Slingshot Group has existed, I don’t believe we have ever engaged in a search for this kind of role specifically. Even though leadership development is usually expected to be a responsibility of most every director or pastor position, it’s rarely at the top of their job description. And furthermore, few staff leaders have any extra time in their busy work weeks to develop leaders at all, let alone well. I wonder if a more hirable role for you to pursue would be something like a “chief of staff?” This is becoming an increasing need in the church. In this role you would be able to build and fuel a staff culture whereby developing leaders (paid and volunteer) becomes more than a good idea, but in fact, an actual reality. One emerging model for larger churches wanting to build a leadership pipeline includes the building of a residency program. This is where young emerging (and talented) leaders come from all over the country for a one to two year practical ministry experience. The oversight of these young leaders by the church’s full time pastoral and director level staff results in higher level of proficiency in specified core competencies relevant to their lane of ministry.

Searching for Children’s Minister

Hey Fletch … I would like to post a job for a Pastor of Children’s Ministries on XPastor. How do I do that?

XPastor has a section to post ministry jobs. Some have had amazing results with the posts. Your mileage will vary. To cover our expenses for running the otherwise free XPastor site, we charge to post jobs. The position will be put on the site and E-News for 3 months. You can get the word out about your open position with plenty of information to help a candidate learn about your church. Ads are custom designed! Help your potential candidates by including full job descriptions and church information. These paid ads receive plenty of emphasis. Put all your position information in one easy-to-read location. This is a real plus for potential candidates. You can see the jobs currently on the XPastor Job Board and here is the page to post a new position.

Searching for Volunteers

Hey Fletch … We had a recent win! Last month, for the first time in many months, we had a full band. We stumbled into it without any great strategy for finding volunteers. Can you give some thoughts about how we can keep the band fully staffed with volunteer musicians?

Congratulations on your current win! Celebrate that with the band. Let them know how appreciative you are for their service to your church. You may want to throw a small party after rehearsal. Don’t let this moment go by without thanking them and celebrating the moment. A first principle for working with volunteers is to celebrate their investment in your church. Many churches lose volunteers because they feel no appreciation for their time and skills. People want to understand their vital role in the mission of your church and want to be properly acknowledged for their part in it. Read through the end of Paul’s letters in the New Testament. See how often he acknowledged and thanked people for their service. Doing this will help you keep the band members that your currently have.

Another principle of working with volunteers is to consistently cast the net for new band members. A good rotation of musicians will allow for people to have a rest, to worship with their families and not burn out. Share this idea with your current band members. Ask them to recommend friends who could serve, so that everyone can have a regular break. Your best source of new musicians will be from recommendations of current band members. Keep thanking folks for their service, casting vision for the purpose of their ministry and looking for good musicians to rotate in.

Worship Resume & Reel

Hey Fletch … I’m beginning to write the script for my worship reel. What do you think are the most important things to hit on in that video. What subjects do churches and employers need/want to hear me share about?

A resume for a worship leader should include your reel. That reel is a collection of videos that show you in action. I would suggest that you include three things: Tell the top two to four things that you do best in leading a worship service. This isn’t bragging, you are sharing the gifts that God has given you. What is that special add that you bring to the worship services? Talk about your teamwork and how you develop others. With an unlimited budget, you could hire many team members. I don’t know of any churches with limitless finances. Every church has a budget. Share how you have developed a team of volunteers. How have you empowered others? How have they owned the vision and used their gifts?

Share the style of worship that you bring. You can use the standard words, such as contemporary, traditional or blended. You can develop your own definitions. What you want to do is convey how you mix songs, scripture and possibly liturgy in the worship service. When I review the resume and reel of a worship leader, these are some of the most important things that I look for.

Response: This is great, thanks!

Learning How to be an XP

Hey Fletch … I am looking to improve and learn additional skills to become an XP. In the mean time, is it appropriate to apply for an XP position?

I applaud that you want to learn more about the XP role. It is a multidimensional role and complicated. The XP role can entail overseeing all staff, operations, governing boards, finances, insurance, HR, legal, ministry strategy, campus safety, and the list goes on. On XPastor, you can click on the Free Course or Videos menu and see various ways to grow in the XP role. This would be a good place to hone your skills.

There are several factors that you need to consider in applying for an XP position: Your years of ministry experience and the breadth of that experience; your years of experience with church operations and governing boards; your knowledge of how churches of different sizes and how XPs fit the needs of those churches. Depending on these factors, applying for an XP role could be a great experience for you. Your God-given gifts and current ministry experience could make you a great fit for a church. Or, the interview process may show areas that you need to grow in.

Worship Pastor to XP

Hey Fletch … I’ve been on the phone with a friend where my son is on staff. He suggested that I reach out to you. I’ve served 30 years in Worship Ministry at large Baptist churches and have been on the executive team for each church. Also, I was 8 years in a secular business. I am feeling a call to move toward the role of Executive Pastor and want to see what opportunities are available.

First let me say that I would be pleased to visit with you. You have great experience in executive level leadership in significant churches. That will give you plenty of insight and wisdom for the XP role. Having business experience as well is a bonus. The XP role is a multi-disciplinary one. A Youth Pastor can specialize in youth and a Worship pastor can specialize in worship. The XP must know how to lead youth and worship pastors, finance, HR, legal, insurance, ministry strategy, budgets, relationships with the governing board, congregational communication—just to name a few. I would suggest that you read Three Kinds of XPs. Discern what type of XP you might be best at. Then, take a look at the rest of the XPastor site, especially the First Six Months menu. Finally, take a look at the Great Resumes to see how to share your good ministry experience with others.

Perhaps Wanting to Be an XP

Hey Fletch … I’d like to learn more about the XP role and perhaps become an XP. You recommended getting into a network with XPs. Right now, I only know one or two XPs. What is your advice on how to get better networked?

I would suggest that you ask the XPs that you know if they are in monthly or quarterly meetings with area XPs. A network of XPs is a great way to grow. So, try to get into their regular meetings. If they don’t meet as a group, try to meet with various XPs on a regular basis for coffee, breakfast or lunch. Learn from their experience. If there are not any area groups, you could start one! Another way for meeting other XPs is to come to the annual XP-Seminar. It is the premier event for XPs. It will give you an amazing grounding in the role, meeting colleagues and leaders from around the nation.

Interested in Being a Pastor

Hey Fletch … I am becoming more and more interested in becoming a pastor. I am not sure what the best route would be. What do you advise?

This is an exciting time in your life. Let me give a few thoughts about becoming a pastor. The first thing is to get deeply involved in your local church right now. Teach where you can. Visit the sick in the hospital and those in nursing homes. You are probably doing this already, so keep at it. Do ministry in your church. What you want to see is how God is using you and your gifts. See if the challenge of pastoral ministry is what you want for a vocation. You may find that you want to keep a job in business and do ministry in the off hours. We all have so much “free time” in which we can invest in others. If most people cut down on their television time, and spent it in serving others, the world would be a much healthier place!

While doing ministry in your church, if you find that God continues to lead you to vocational ministry, then I recommend getting some pastoral education. You can go online or go to a bricks and mortar seminary. I don’t know what theological education is available in Scandinavia. I went to Dallas Seminary and they have solid online degree programs: “You don’t have to uproot to attend seminary. DTS has fully online programs designed to immerse you in the Gospel story in all 66 books of the Bible and prepare you to serve wherever God calls you.” Many other schools have wonderful online and on-site programs. If you decide to get more education, continue to serve in a local church while doing the ‘book learning.’

Talk to your pastor about your thoughts. Get advice from other pastors as well. Ask for honest feedback about your prospects in vocational ministry. There are so many challenges in being a pastor. You will want to know for sure that God has called you—that calling will be essential in the hard days of ministry.

Want to Preach

Hey Fletch … I really appreciate the advice you recently gave me. I’m sure you get lots of emails from inquisitive folk! I have another question. The thought of preaching excites me, but I know administration is my leading gift. God has long been prepping me for the XP role. I’m doing a Masters of Divinity at Dallas Seminary now and I’d be really interested in working with you in the XP Doctor of Ministry program. At the same time, preaching and teaching really excited me. That said I’m going to stay the course, even if I only get to be a fill-in teacher!

You are on a great path. Getting a good education prepares you in so many ways. The M.Div program gives so many tools of biblical knowledge and hones your teaching ability. There are many XPs who regularly preach and teach. It’s not an “either this or that” but often a “both XP and teaching.” It does a congregation well to hear the XP preach from time to time. You may also find that there is a class or small group that you regularly teach. You never know that God may have you be a preaching pastor sometime in the future. Stay on your course. Develop the gifts that God has given you. Enjoy where He will lead you.

SP or XP?

Hey Fletch … Hi again! Been a couple years. Followed your advice. Finished my MBA. Started and currently running my own business. And this year began taking night courses for a Master of Divinity. Been networking a ton as well. Can I be honest though? I’m really torn between the Lead Pastor and XP role. I’m gifted in teaching and vision, but not in shepherding, which makes me think I would suffer as a Lead Pastor. But then, I’m afraid that as an XP that I wouldn’t use those teaching/vision gifts that I fell compelled to use. Any way to sort this out? I know you’re busy! Thanks for any help or homework you can send my way.

I love hearing from you and your progress. That is fantastic. Volunteer to preach as much as you can. Teach in adult groups and kids groups. Develop that gift! If you are gifted there, then fan that flame. As for not being a shepherd, I know many lead pastors who are teachers first, vision casters second. On stage they are warm and shepherding, but off stage it is a challenge for them. If you become a Lead Pastor, I recommend: hire a Care Pastor. Let them be the warm embrace to the congregation. There are many people who want to be Care Pastors … I could recommend 10 great Care Pastors for every 1 great XP or SP. It’s more a matter of time. Preaching every week, at least to do it well, takes 20-25 hours of study, preparation and delivery time. There goes half the week! To be an XP takes another 25 hours of ministry strategy, planning, HR, Ops, Facilities, staff time, board time, etc.

Response—Thanks for the fast reply! I will certainly do that. As for a Care Pastor, that’s a great idea. I was thinking that my “thinking” nature would need to be counterbalanced by a “feeling” pastor. Based on your advice, am I right to assume that most XPs do not have the gift/desire to teach? Is that the main reason that SPs transition to XP?

Resume

Hey Fletch … I’d like to become an XP. Could you take a look at my resume and give me some thoughts?

I would be pleased to review your resume. Before you send it to me, check out the Resumes Page on XPastor. Learn from those who have outstanding resumes! I like to see a resume that conveys the strengths and experience of an individual. Get some help on the design to let your resume stand out from the crowd. Always send a resume in PDF form, not in MSWord or Pages. PDF preserves your formatting. The current trend is for a one-page resume, with a link to your website that has full information. Send me your resume when you are ready!

First Interview Questions

Hey Fletch … Hey I have a first interview for a position on Friday. Any tips? What kind of preparation should I do? What questions should I ask them?

Before I drafted my thoughts, I did a web search on “first impressions.” There is a ton of good material on the subject. I especially liked that the Dale Carnegie course said: “Never underestimate the value of a smile. The first time you come face to face not only sets the tone for that meeting, it determines the success of all future interactions.” This is good advice. Leave your cares at home and come with a positive attitude and a smile. Who wants to hire a grumpy person? I have hired scores and scores of church staff … being honest and positive is essential.

For preparation before the interview: Do research on the church. Get to know them, watch videos of worship. Understand the vision and values of the church. Look at recent sermons to see if you will gel with the preaching style and content. Subscribe to the church’s e-newsletter. Understand their current concerns and issues. See where their vision is taking them.

Concerning questions you may ask during the interview: Compile a written list of questions to ask. You may not want to ask each one but having a list puts you in the driver’s seat with options. Write down what questions they may ask you. You may want to write your answers as well. This will help you give a complete picture of who you are. Know your strengths. Be able to articulate them. Have a story from your life about how God has used each of your strengths. People remember stories. In the interview, don’t accept their questions at face value. Clarify what they mean with a question. Don’t assume that everyone in the interview has the same understanding of terms and ideas. Finally, don’t speak badly of others. Even if you disagreed with someone in a prior church, count it all as a positive learning experience.

Succession or Fired

SP Resigns

Hey Fletch … I just resigned as Senior Pastor. Unfortunately the situation here has become unworkable. The most caring choice I can make is to move on to give a chance for a new senior pastor to bring a fresh start. Can you read my resignation letter and listen to the video? You have been a big help to me over the last six months and I deeply appreciate your advice. Can you give me some thoughts on my final days in this ministry?

Friend, I have read your resignation letter and listened to the announcement to the congregation. God gave you a great run of 15 years at the church. Congratulations on serving well. Your godly spirit is evident in hoping for a new senior pastor “to bring a fresh start.” I hurt with you for the pain and also the challenge in moving on. This is now a season to trust God for your next assignment.

Issues in the last month must have come to a boiling point for you to make this decision. You have worked hard to deal with those who disagree with you, but there is a time to move on. You are taking a big step and doing so graciously. You had a good presentation and treated people well. Good work in that! Walk well in the transition. It can be challenging between now and when you leave. Love the people for who they are. Try to resolve any outstanding conflict. Remember Paul’s words, “In as much as it is possible, be at peace with all men.” Some people may need time before they are ready to work through their issues. Don’t burn any bridges. Keep your pain confined to a few trusted confidants, as I’m sure that you will. Don’t keep that pain bottled up to yourself, but talk to a small circle of people whom you trust. God’s best in your next steps. Keep me informed!

Dumped from the Project

Hey David … This one is personal and hard to write. I just got an email that seems to say that I wasn’t on a project any longer. I’m totally shocked. I thought that I was the project leader and now they are bringing in another person. I’m pretty mad and hurt. Thoughts for me?

In reading your email, your Senior Pastor didn’t say much, just two lines. What he said was ambiguous. It all turns on one verb. The email was as clear as mud. I’d suggest not attributing motive or making an accusation. Why don’t you just reply with a simple question, such as, “Could you expand on your thoughts?”

Follow up from Fletch—So, the Senior Pastor clarified his thoughts and his original email was poorly worded. Instead of ousting you, he was trying to laud your leadership. Email is tricky as the fingers sometimes type faster than the brain thinks. Here are take-away principles: Ask simple questions for clarification. Don’t assume motive. Don’t return fire with fire. Treat others as you want to be treated.

Boss Stole My Idea

Hey Fletch … my boss stole my idea and said it was his. What gives?

That’s a hard one to hear. I’m so sorry that you had this experience. Can you go back to your boss and get some clarification? Can you explain to him that the idea was yours? Can you share your disappointment and angst? Some ideas are born out of collaborative efforts. When things are products of a work group, they should be shared as “the team created …” When an individual comes up with an idea, it should be shared as “this team member had a terrific concept and I want to put it forward.”

Some leaders do what you have experienced—they present the work of others as their own. They may feel that as the boss they have the right to this. Good ethics dictate this not to be the case. By not giving proper credit, your boss stole from you. The best practice is to share the fantastic ideas of staff members and give proper acknowledgement. I have never heard of a person being fired simply because they hired smart people. The better that a person hires and promotes the work of others, the more good credit comes to the entire team. If your boss would have said, “this person created this,” the others in the room would have thought, “that boss has a great team and must be doing something right to get such great ideas.”

Exit Email to Friends

Hey David … When you recently moved on from your church, you sent out a “keeping you in the loop” email. It was short, factual, upbeat and didn’t throw anyone under the bus. Just wanted to let you know that yesterday I changed jobs (in business) and that I followed your lead.

Thanks for the encouragement! Emulation is the highest form of praise. When you leave a ministry or business job, don’t burn bridges. As Jesus said, “bless and curse not.” What you will remember is your response, words and actions. In two years you will forget much of the joys and pains of a farewell, but will remember who you befriended or belittled. The words of Jesus have so much application today!

SP Needs to Move On

Hey Fletch … I have been feeling that I should move on from this senior pastor position. I’m not a pushy person. But to stay, I will have to be quite forceful with several leaders. They are trying to make some damaging decisions for the church. Whether I become pushy or give in to their poor decisions, it will just chew me up on the inside. Do you have any help for me?

I know that this situation has gone on for some time. This is not a knee-jerk response to one or two bad meetings. In the church there have been significant power plays going on at various levels for quite a while. You have been trying to respond graciously and wisely. The most recent struggles for power have been with several board members about who is going to decide the future of the church. You are a consensus leader. You desire to get everyone on the same page, even though that takes longer to make and implement key decisions. Some church members and leaders have seen this as weakness. Some wanted you to lay down the law and dictate how things are going to happen. They want you as senior pastor to slay the dragons of board member power by assuming total control of the church.

Assuming total control of the church is not your leadership style. I think that you hit the nail on the head with your comments. You don’t want to acquiesce to the power mongers or become one yourself. Either of those solutions will, in your words, “chew me up on the inside.” For months you have been between a rock and a hard place. If you take on the power people, you will become one yourself. That will violate the way that you want to lead the church. Either you become someone you despise or decide to leave. Since you have been working on this power issue for many months, you are at a crossroads. I think that you know which road you need to take … to act with integrity and your giftedness as a leader, to not become someone who you will detest. I’m sensing that you have made your decision and are floating it to a few confidants for their consensus.

Worship Director Moving On

Hey Fletch … As a Senior Pastor of a new and growing church, I have a staff member leaving. The role is the 10-hour-a-week director of the worship services. Can you review the transition plan? I have laid out five steps: 1) Collect and review resumes/references of those interested, 2) Interview 2-3 people, 3) Make a final decision, 4) The new person begins and learns from the person leaving, and 5) Have the new person begin to run a Sunday.

Your challenge in a new church is finding and hiring people of high caliber. You want the best and your 5-point plan is a good start. You are also in a time crunch, as you need the new person to be in place within 8 weeks. The first thing that I would suggest is that you have a backup plan. Your timeline is so tight. Perhaps have a person who can run the worship services for a few months. Give yourself breathing room to search for a great person and fit.

You do not want to get desperate and do what many do: “Hire someone who isn’t a great fit because the hole is so big.” If you hire a poor fit, then you will be dealing with the ramifications of that decision. And, you may be looking for a replacement fairly soon! Here is a good article on XPastor, A Preferred Hiring Path. That article addresses many of the issues in how to hire new staff. Your situation will be different, but the article illustrates important aspects of getting to know the candidate. With your backup plan in place, you can follow good steps to hiring a person for this vital role.

You are Done Here

Hey Fletch … My boss wants me out. She came into my office last week and essentially said “You are done here.” What should I do?

Often there is a substantial backstory that builds up to that climactic statement. Sometimes it comes out of thin air. Either way, your relationship with your boss is severely damaged, probably beyond repair. As you think through the last few months, consider what you have done to be out of step with your boss. Has your ministry gone in a different direction than the church’s vision statement? Have there been disgruntled people or unresolved issues? Have your words or actions been or appeared to be insubordinate?

On the other side of the coin, your church may desire to go in a different direction. The vision may have changed and your area of ministry may be considered passé. Your boss may want someone with a different style or temperament in your role. Support staff need due process to fulfill the legal requirements of termination. Unfortunately for pastors, there are few, if any, legal requirements to be let go. Consult your church’s employee manual to see if there are policy requirements for pastoral termination. I hurt with you and your pain in losing a good ministry. However, consider that God is bigger than people and locations. This may be God’s way of freeing you to be in a church where you are appreciated.

You Don’t Matter

Hey Fletch … I’m demoralized and ashamed to repeat what my Preaching Pastor said to me. In front of one of my staff, he said, “You don’t matter. People won’t remember you when you are gone. I’m the one up front every Sunday.” I’m heartbroken and don’t know what to do.

I am so sorry to hear of your pain and travail. As they say in California, “that’s a real bummer.” I would hazard to say from your email that your pastor has said things like this to others. You are not the first. This means that the problem is not with you but centers with him. You may have provoked him but did not deserve that response. Jesus offers a better way to talk with others!

Your pastor may have become infested with “I’m the Top Man Syndrome.” Unfortunately, we can see from the time of Israel that people want a king. God wanted to be the King, but the people of Israel asked for a human king. God gave them one. A problem with being king is that everyone else becomes a second rate citizen, including you. Churches often want king leaders. You received the brunt of your Senior Pastor’s feelings of inferiority. He projected on you his own feelings of inadequacy. He knows that he can’t be king of the church but many of your congregation have put him on that pedestal. It is a scary place to be for the pastor, to try to deliver what only God can provide.

You have three options. First, you can overlook the offense. That will be hard and will not help your pastor. Second, you can gently confront him in the spirit of Galatians 6:1, “If a person is discovered in sin, the spiritual should restore the person in a spirit of gentleness.” You can say that you were hurt and offended at his harsh words. Give him a chance to apologize and make amends. If he makes amends, it will need to include your team member who was present when he made the original remark. Third, you can find a new place of ministry, if God allows you to leave. Pray and carefully consider what you should do.

Pastor Taking Hits

Hey Fletch … You know, there’s a lot of material for counseling marriages. There is little out there that I’m aware of for counseling for pastors who take the shots and still have to lead. Managing the mental and emotional jungle when unforeseen chaos hits so close is something most of us have no category for.

I was thinking through your email and praying for you. Things like what you have described take a huge emotional toll on the pastor. Your board members may see something like this once in a blue moon. You, however, are preaching every week, doing counseling, working with staff … the spiritual weight is enormous. Make sure that you get at least one day off in seven. God rested after six days of creation and so can you. Take care of your spiritual, physical and emotional health. Unplug. Turn off the smart phone and email after 9:00 pm. Ask other staff to handle after-hours pastoral emergencies. Get away from it all from time to time. The church can live without you while you recharge! Take a vacation or get away to a “pastoral retreat center.” Do an internet search to find a pastor’s retreat near you. I’ve heard great reports on many of these. Your church will love you more when you come back rested and ready for the ongoing challenge of pastoral ministry. I’ll be praying for you.

Age 65 and Then Fired

Hey Fletch … I just got out of a meeting with my XP. He told me that the church has a policy that pastors have to retire at age 65. I don’t get it. I’m effective in my role, love it and have a good five to ten years of ministry left in me. What should I do?

Ouch. I’m so sorry to hear this. I strongly disagree with such a policy. You have great ministry ahead of you … somewhere! When it comes to non-pastors, there are many rules about age discrimination. When it comes to pastors, the rules are different. Richard Hammar cites a case from a federal appeals court. The ruling said: “We believe that the free exercise of religion clause of the First Amendment also prohibits the courts from deciding cases such as this one. Personnel decisions by church-affiliated institutions affecting clergy are per se religious matters and cannot be reviewed by civil courts.” Richard also cites other cases that show a more mixed posture on this issue.

A Supreme Court case noted, “Requiring a church to accept or retain an unwanted minister, or punishing a church for failing to do so, intrudes upon more than a mere employment decision,” wrote Chief Justice John Roberts on behalf of the entire Court. “By imposing an unwanted minister, the state infringes the Free Exercise Clause, which protects a religious group’s right to shape its own faith and mission through its appointments.” I strongly recommend against age-based retirement for pastors. Older pastors have enormous wisdom and experience. They are vital to mentoring younger pastors and doing effective ministry in the church. You could appeal the policy to your governing board. Ultimately, they are responsible for all policies in the church.

Drummer Quit

Hey Fletch … I met with our volunteer drummer last night. We talked for an hour about life and ministry. At the end of the time, just as we were about ready to leave, he said: “Oh, I’ve really enjoyed being in the band but I need to pull out. My schedule is too crazy right now.” Why would someone wait until the end of a meeting to make a big announcement like that?

Managing a big announcement is challenging. The timing of a major announcement is crucial and, unfortunately, your drummer acted like many leaders. He chose a bad time to make his departure known to you. In an attempt to share information in a non-threatening way, people often make their announcement when there is no time for discussion. He has controlled the situation so that you have no time to interact with his decision. You are forced to accept it as is.

Perhaps he thinks that if there is discussion, that he might back down on his decision. He could be a poor negotiator and not process his thoughts or feelings as things happen. Either way, he has made it impossible for you to discuss his decision that day. Some leaders do the same thing. Whether through a desire to have the power of controlling discussion, or the inability to have a discussion, some leaders make major announcements at the end of a meeting. It certainly puts a damper on the meeting. Most members feel cheated; if the announcement had been made earlier, they could have reset the agenda to work with the new information.

It gets down to helping people think through your decision. You can frame a decision so that it is firm: “I’ve thought through this and am certain that this is what I must do, but I want to talk with you about the transition.” This treats others well. It lets them know that you care about the team and the ongoing needs of others. Yet, it also affirms to all that our decision is final.

Senior Pastor Transition Period

Hey Fletch … Our senior pastor is leaving soon. It looks like we will have a 12 to 24 month transition period. It that just a time for ministries to be in a holding pattern, like planes circling and waiting to land at the airport?

Many great things can happen during a senior pastor transition. I would encourage you to not view it as a holding pattern. The new senior pastor needs to see a church that is alive and thriving, not just waiting for a new leader. When I led the staff during a 20-month transition, our strategic team each year set out four main goals to accomplish. Here are some of the results:We sent 200 people on short-term mission trips one summer. We began a daily Bible reading that was emailed to over 1,300 people in the church family. The reading had a devotional response from various church leaders. We ended the fiscal year with a 20% surplus of our annual budget in the bank. We brought a nationally-noted evangelist to our Easter services. We saw the waves of tension go from 30 foot waves down to 3 foot waves. We brought back a Christmas event and added a fresh and gospel-compelling walk-through of the night of Jesus’ birth. The first year 15,000 people came and the second, 22,000. God honors the plans of leaders when they step out in faith. Don’t sit back and wait for the new senior pastor. Lead the congregation in some great, all-church goals.

Leading in a Transition

Hey Fletch … Just wanted to say thanks for this XPastor article, Leading Through A Senior Pastor Transition.

Chuck Olson, one of the XPastor Community, wrote that article. I’m so please that it was helpful to you. A Senior Pastor change in a church is a challenge. Chuck lays out the groundwork there—Keep Perspective, Provide Continuity, Provide Stability, Look Ahead, Seek Outside Help, Emphasize Prayer, Advance the Mission, (Over) Communicate, Seek Counsel and Anticipate a New Song. Having gone through several SP transitions in my XP tenure, I agree with what Chuck says. You may also want to read a new Senior Pastor’s perspective, in Jeff Jones’ article: Succession Thoughts. I also wrote a case study on the transition from Gene Getz to Jeff Jones. God’s best to you in your transition! Let me see if Chuck Olson wants to add anything to the article that you mentioned.

Chuck—Looking back on these transitions in leadership, I would want to add one more: Keep a journal that traces and captures God’s activity in your own soul during the ups and downs that attend times of change. These seasons will be some of your richest times of how God first works deeply in your life before He works through your life.