Fletch Answers Questions on the XP

Church vs. Business, Essentials, First Six Months, Growing as an XP and the SP-XP Relationship.

Church vs. Business

Business-Minded New XP

Hey Fletch … We hired an XP about a year ago and he is killing us. He is gruff, direct and all business. He doesn’t get what it means to be a pastor. Help!

Many new Executive Pastors come from the business world. They are used to making decisions, corporate policy and a fast pace. I wrote an aphorism on The Church Moves at Glacial Speed. You may want to read it and give it to him.

The only problem to comparing the church to a glacier is that it does a horrible disservice to glaciers! The first thing that a corporate type needs to learn is that the church has all its stakeholders present every Sunday. Companies rarely gather all their owners, stockholders and customers together at one place, let alone every week. Church members deeply care about how the campus looks, changes that are made, using the facility for their group and how communication is shared on Sundays and in email. Pastors are a different breed of cat. Most pay for seminary on their own. Who gets lucrative stock options to put into a retirement account? There is often little job security when new leadership comes to a church. Pastors are leading the charge of a spiritual war—praying with grieving families, counseling a teen who is suicidal, teaching the Word with conviction, discipling people through challenging situations.

Here are some things you can do. Invite your XP into your ministry. Take them on a youth trip to Mexico. Grab their hand and bring them for a day into the local homeless shelter with you. Ask them to join you in a challenging “on call” situation. Take them to lunch and share the challenges of your ministry. Your XP is on a steep learning curve, just as you were when you first entered ministry!

Elder to XP

Hey Fletch … I have been an elder in our church for many years. Just last month, I became the new executive pastor. What are some of the major things that I need to be aware of in this change?

Congratulations on your new role! That’s an exciting step in your life and in the life of your church. The transition from a role on a church governing board to a staff member has some significant areas to be aware of. Let me share two areas of communication challenges: Watch your language! Remember that you have two tons of power in your speech. You can throw around 2,000 pounds of power as an elder and another 2,000 pounds as executive pastor. Your words carry a great deal of authority. When you whisper a suggestion, it will come across as a loud command. When you yell … well, don’t do that. You may be amazed to learn that people took your blue sky thinking as a game plan to follow. You were just shooting the breeze and they were taking action notes.

Listen a great deal! Get a new feel for how the staff functions. Board members may spend four hours a week at the church. Now you will be spending ten times that amount. Ask open-ended questions, not “yes or no” ones. Follow up on the person’s response to your question and go deeper into the subject. People may need to know that you are really interested to give you the “full scoop” on an issue. You will now see the staff from the inside, not just as a board member. Understand their challenges, frustrations and joys. Get to know what makes them want to do ministry at your church. The bottom line is: Speak less and listen more.

Essentials

European XP Interview

Hey Fletch … I am interviewing for an XP role in a church in another city in Europe. I am part of the shortlist of 3 people. Can you suggest some answers to prepare?

Congratulations on being on the shortlist for interviews! That is exciting and could be a great next step for you in ministry. I’m always excited to hear about XPs in Europe! At XPastor events, we have had folks from Ireland, South Africa, Korea, Hong Kong, just to name a few countries. People from all over the world utilize the XPastor website.

Here are some thoughts for your interview: Be ready to talk about your strengths and limitations. Talking about “your strengths” is not bragging when done in the context of “God has given me these abilities to serve Him.” Know your limitations and how you will compensate for them. Even Superman had kryptonite! The problem is not in having limitations, but when people don’t know that they have them. Some XPs are stronger as pastors and others as executives. Gather a team of talented folks around you to bolster your areas of limitations.

Churches want to know what you can do for them. Be ready to talk about your experiences in various areas. Have a short list of 4-8 key stories that demonstrate your ability to “do the job.” Stories are powerful and memorable. They bring perspective and allow for sharing the complexities of ministry. Carefully review the job description, the church’s website and any history that you can gather. Review the church’s constitution and by-laws. Get any budget information that you can, as well as job descriptions of staff and volunteers. Become an expert on this congregation. These are broad areas and will allow you to drill down into specific areas. Let me know how the interview goes!

Need for XP Role

Hey Fletch … What is the best way to convince a strong Senior Pastor of the necessity for creating an XP role at the church?

The answer is “complexity.” Strong Senior Pastors understand that! Churches of all sizes deal with complex budgets, the Affordable Care Act, ministry strategy, child safety, security to prevent an active shooter, hiring and termination, legal issues, staff culture, ministry best practices, etc. I recently did an interview with Matt Branaugh of ChurchLaw&Tax on this topic. In 2014, Dan Reiland wrote an article for XPastor, ‘Who Needs an Executive Pastor, Anyway?’ It is a short and to the point summary of the need. Due to ever increasing “complexity,” we now see the role in ⅔ of churches with between 500-1,000 people in worship. I’m still boggled at that statistic. Ask your Senior Pastor how “complexity” has affected your church.

Looking for African-American XP

Hey Fletch … I’m a Senior Pastor and we are looking for a proficient African-American XP. We don’t know where to go to find good candidates. Can you help?

It is so nice to hear from you. I went to the church website and loved what I saw. It looks like God has given a tremendous ministry to you! There are at least six ways to do a search to find a quality candidate. Before I get to that, let me address the specifics of your search. The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunities Commission (EEOC) has rules that apply to hiring staff who are not pastors. As for pastors, the HRExaminer website notes: “After an exhaustive discussion of the tension between Church and State beginning with the Magna Carta, the Court decided that churches should be able to pick whomever they want in ‘conveying the Church’s message and carrying out its mission.’ Under the First Amendment, churches have that freedom, even if its decision is based on discriminatory factors that are unrelated to the religious beliefs.”

You may be within the law by looking for an African-American executive pastor. However, you may not want to be a church that searches for and hires only African-American pastors. What if an ideal African, Hispanic or Anglo pastor was a candidate? While you may have a preference for someone who understands the culture of the African-American experience, I would suggest that you be open to a candidate of any race.

I recommend that in your opportunity profile for the position, ask for candidates to have an understanding and experience in the African-American church. As to your question, there are at least six methods for hiring someone with African-American church experience: Hope for great candidates to simply “appear.” This is the weakest method for finding a great person to fill the position. Look within your congregation for a person with business experience and a pastoral heart. For the XP role, about half of all XPs come from within the church. Contact universities and seminaries. Ask for the position to be posted on their job search page. Contact other churches. Ask if their church leadership knows of competent people to recommend. Post the position on XPastor. We have a large following through the website, e-newsletter and social media. Many XPs find positions in this way. Enlist the help of a professional search firm. While this is the most expensive route to follow, you get a search professional to help you find the right XP.

One of the most important characteristics of a good XP is the trust that they have with the SP. You want someone who understands you, can represent you, and that you trust to help lead the church. God’s best to you in your search. Please keep me informed of how it goes!

Bishop’s XP?

Hey Doc … My Presiding Bishop is looking to create a role for someone to visit churches inside and outside our organization. This person would stand in for the Bishop when he is unable to be at events and conferences. Do you have any suggestions for a role description and title?

Sounds like a wonderful role for the right person. XPastor does not have a job description on file for such a role … my thoughts for creating it would be: Create a role description that has the scope of what you expect and empower the person to do. Have percentages of time for each of the major sections. Limit the role description to one page. Focus on strategic areas and don’t get bogged down in tactical details. Get lots of buy-in on the role from the Bishop and others on the team, so that everyone is on board with the scope and major aspects. As for the name, I’d suggest a title that shows the representative nature of the role. Perhaps, Executive Liaison or Staff Officer for the Bishop. Let me know how you craft the role and the title you choose.

Training to be an XP

Hey Fletch … I’m looking for a church that could train me as an XP. I’d like to get hands-on training about how to be an XP. While I have a seminary degree, it gave me great teaching in Bible. No school seems to be equipping people for the unique role of XP. Thoughts?

When I was an XP in California, I had four people go through an XP residency program. We loved it because we got to work together and solve problems in real time. They grew in their ability to lead and manage the church. One resident got hired as an XP at a jumbo mega church. Another became a church planter. Two others are at the church in XP-type roles. Right now, I don’t know of anyone who is offering a residency program. There was one started in Fort Worth and I’m checking on its status. There was another in Atlanta and I will also check on it. Keep searching. You can also check out our XPastor online courses! Ask your local church if they might be interested in taking you on as a resident XP.

CFO to XP

Hey Fletch … A friend referred me to you. I’m currently working as a CFO of a church but that is coming to an end soon. I have lots of for-profit experience as a CEO, CFO and COO. I was wondering if I might be a good XP. Can you advise me?

You have good experience from your church and for-profit business experience. With a limited knowledge of your abilities, I can’t comment on whether the XP role would be good for you. Talk to your Senior Pastor and governing board members. Do they see that you could fill that role? A good XP needs both a business brain and a pastoral heart.

Two Job Offers

Hey Fletch … Believe it or not, there are two churches that have offered me jobs. One is still getting the offer letter together and I have the offer from the other in hand. Thanks for your resources in this process. However, what do I do now? Wait or make a decision? Should I contact the church that hasn’t sent me an offer letter? What do I say?

Congratulations on having a church that has offered you a position! The other church hasn’t yet offered you a position, so consider your situation carefully. The old saying applies here: “A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.” Carefully evaluate God’s call to you concerning the church that has given you an offer. They want you and so have offered the job! They have made their decision and now it is time for you to make yours. Ensure that you can live on the wage being offered. Review the role description to see that it fits your gifts and abilities. Negotiate any items of pay or role now, not after you are hired. Pray whether you should accept this offer. Find out when this church needs a reply from you. I generally give pastors three weeks to respond to a job offer.

As for the second church, I would suggest that you contact them. Carefully give an overview that another church is interested in hiring you. However, you don’t want to coerce them into making an offer—no one likes being coerced! Ask about their timeline. They may have another offer outstanding or items of internal procedure that need to be followed. Perhaps ask for their salary range. Ensure that the role description fits. Pray whether God would have you wait for this second offer.

Fell Off Church

Hey Fletch … God has showed my calling to many and I’m starting to see it. I fell off church due to a bad relationship. I’ve been through so much and learned so much and don’t know the next step. I want to become a pastor! Any advice helps.

One of my favorite books is “Pilgrim’s Progress.” Written by John Bunyan in 1678, it has never gone out of print. It is the allegory of Christian who struggles along the path of life. We all struggle along that path! The Apostle Peter denied Christ—“He began to curse and swore with an oath, ‘I do not know him!’” (Matt. 27:74). Peter cursed, swore and took an oath. That is strong and salty language!

I’m so glad to see you realize why you “fell off church.” Now it is time to learn and grow from it. Grace gives us the freedom to not have to be perfect. Grace empowers us to accept God’s forgiveness and share it with others. Since you and others are seeing God’s call on your life, start serving. The issue is not “paid or volunteer,” as both avenues can be used by God. Get into your local church and use your gifts. Get some education along the way. Education equips us for ministry and shows us doctrinal and practical mistakes made in the past. There is no need to repeat those mistakes! Get with leaders in your church and pastors in the area. Learn from those who have been doing ministry for decades. Discover your gifts and serve.

9 Years Looking

Hey Fletch … What if one has been looking for nine years and submitted resumes to over fifty different churches with very few interviews. What should I do?

I’m sorry to hear that. I applaud your desire to serve in a local church. You have great tenacity! I would suggest that you talk to a coach. Your resume or cover letter could be off-putting. Regularly I review resumes and find many are poorly crafted. Check out our Great Resumes page. God could be speaking to you to stay in business. You may need more education or experience for the jobs you are applying for. There are lots of things to consider. Some great ministry workers have full-time jobs in business. Friends of ours have used their gifts to launch a recovery ministry in their church. With a team of dedicated folks, that ministry has helped thousands of people struggling with addictions, family issues and personal struggles. This husband and wife have done that every Thursday evening for years. You may find great fulfillment in leading a ministry in your church … as a business person.

First Six Months

Start-Up XP

Hey Fletch … I was an XP over 20 years ago in a startup role when two churches merged. It has about 1,400 attenders. Since then I’ve been teaching in a university. I have an interview next week for an XP role in a church of about 200. Is there a step-by-step manual for being a startup XP? I need help if I should get this position.

I don’t know of a start-up manual for XPs, especially of smaller churches. Part of the challenge is that each church is different. I would suggest that you get an idea of what the church has in place already, if anything. You could look through the major categories of articles on XPastor: Operations, Finances, Staffing, Strategy and New XP. Some ideas: Set a compensation grid for the employees, along with criteria for merit increases. Establish a simple HR manual. Consider what church policies need to be established. Enhance the culture of volunteering and train people to use their gifts. Establish a culture of generosity. Set a fair budget that includes contingency for new ministry or emergencies. Consider a 3-year staffing plan for growth. Evaluate the current vision and how to implement it in strategic initiatives. You have a great opportunity ahead of you!

Herding Cats

Hey Fletch … I’m about to become the XP in our church. I’ve never had a church position before and several people tell me it is like herding cats. Really?

Popular expressions have a grain of truth in them. The expression “leading staff is like herding cats” is one of the popular ones. Most pastors pay their own way through seminary or other studies. Most pastors are not compensated at corporate levels. Most pastors have learned how to serve their churches without a great deal of mentoring. From this background, you can see that most pastors don’t recognize the great need for a “boss,” a “supervisor,” or someone to “tell them what to do.” I’m not saying any of this is right. That’s just the way things currently are.

Just Promoted

Hey Fletch … I was recently promoted inside my church to the XP role. I’m looking for a recommendation for a book that deals with the transition to a new role in ministry. Something similar in nature to the book “The First 90 Days” by Michael D. Watkins, but from a ministry role perspective. Thanks for any suggestions you might share.

Congratulations on the new position. On XPastor you can find some free articles: William Vanderbloemen wrote, Keys to a Successful First 100 Days as a Senior Pastor. Warren Schuh wrote, The XP’s First 100 Days. Greg Rupley did a book review on The New Leader’s 100-Day Action Plan. Let me copy this to Jon Wright, as he may have some more ideas:

Jon—The book “The First 100 Days: A Pastor’s Guide” by T. Scott Daniels may be of help to you. It’s a good one for a new pastor or a new role in an existing ministry. I’m praying for you as you step up into this new season of ministry.

New XP to Learn from a Seasoned XP

Hey Fletch … I am relatively new as an XP. First, your website and the XP-Seminar have been tremendous resources. Second, I want to hang out with an XP in my area for a day to watch how they work. The problem I have is, “How I should structure the day and what questions I should ask?” I feel as though I don’t even know what questions I need answered right now. I just know that others out there have many years and more wisdom in this role than I do. If you were to observe an XP for a day, what would you want them to show you or answer for you?

Nice to hear from you. There is a great group of XPs in your city. Let me know if you want to get connected with them. They meet regularly and talk through XP issues. Hanging out with another XP is a great way to grow. I applaud your thinking on this. There is no reason to go it alone or to reinvent the wheel. Getting outside advice and understanding is crucial. I do strategic coaching with XPs and always recommend they get up close with other churches. You are on a great path.

Here are some thoughts for you: Be with the XP on a day of significant meetings. Discover how the staff meetings are run. Get in on a Core Team or Key Staff meeting. Click some mental pictures of those meetings. Take notes on what you want to emulate and what won’t work in your situation. From those meetings, assemble a list of situational issues for discussion. You will probably have more than an hour’s worth of material. This could make great fodder for a lunchtime discussion. Take the XP out for lunch and pay for the meal as a mini thank you for the time together.

Ask about the strengths that the XP brings to the church. There could be issues of giftedness or style for you to learn from. The XP may have significant experience in past ministry or business as well. Discover the limitations of the XP and how they compensate for that. Some XPs are strong in ministry skills. They may supplement business expertise with staff or a team of leaders, such as people with strengths in Finance or Facilities. On the other side of the coin, some XPs are great in business and have other staff help with ministry strategy.

Review the church’s org chart and see how it compares to yours. Most XPs are either Board members or sit in with the Governing Board. Walk through this experience and compare it to yours. What kind of prep work does the XP send to the Board before the meeting? How does this help inform the Board and pave the way for better discussion and decisions. As time allows, talk through staffing issues and ministry planning. Who are the great staff and how are they encouraged. What is being done with staff who are not performing well or who have stagnated? Have the XP explain the mission of the church and how it is being lived out in the staff, budget priorities and people of the church.

After your day together, send a personal note with a small gift, perhaps a card to Starbucks. The amount is less important than the thought behind it. You may want to return for another day or invite the XP to your church for a day or lunch. Let me know how it goes!

SP-XP Relationship

3 Kinds of XPs

Hey Fletch … I came across your pivotal article on the 3 Kinds of XPs. Thanks so much for making this available.

It is always gratifying to hear from the XPastor community. The article, 3 Kinds of XPs, is very popular on the site because it addresses the main types of XPs in churches. As society and church changes in the future, we may see the XP role change. By way of history, let’s remember that the title “Senior Pastor” was rarely, if ever, used in the 1950’s. By the 70’s and 80’s, it was a common title. The size of church staffs increased from one or two people to six or ten. With that growth, the title “Senior Pastor” entered our lexicon.

So it is with XPs. The title was rare in the 1990’s but by 2010 it was common in thousands of churches. Often our titles are driven by changing roles and functions in the church. With society and church as complex as it currently is, I don’t foresee any upcoming change for the need of XPs.

First XP

Hey Fletch … 21 years ago God gave me the privilege of leading a team to plant our church. Thank you for your ministry to XPs around the world. We are looking for our first Executive Pastor. To this point I have largely played both roles since I have some XP-like gifting, as a result, I think I have held the church back, and am ready to focus purely on being the Senior Pastor. With your vast experience, I would love your wisdom on how best to go about this, weighing the factors you are very aware of—internal hire vs. external; someone I know and trust vs. highly skilled person I do not know. Do we use a search firm? Feel free to direct me to resources on your robust website.

There is plenty to unpack in your questions. They are deep and have so many implications. You have been flying at tree top level for many years. Tactics are great but you need to be at the strategic and visionary level 90% of the time. You will need someone that you completely trust to run the organization. Letting go of tactics will be a challenge as it is part of your wiring. But, you know that you need to focus on preaching, leadership and vision. Trust is going to be the key ingredient between you and your XP. Second will be your ability to disengage from important issues and focus on only the vital. Your biggest “enemies” will be yourself and the tyranny of the urgent.

SP-XP Structure

Hey Fletch … Have been an XP for nearly 20 years and I’m curious on your thoughts on organizational structure of the SP/XP positions. I’ve twice been in the “2nd chair” position, organizationally under the SP, and once things start to go bad I’m the vulnerable one that loses his job when the fault is elsewhere. I’ve seen an org chart that has SP and XP as co-equals organizationally. Clearly the SP is still visionary leader, but the XP reports to the Elders, not the SP. The XP supports the SP but not as likely to have SP try to terminate if both are accountable to the Elders.

It gets down into the culture of churches. There are some churches that have the XP and SP report to the board. I haven’t kept a list of them; that would have been nice! They seem to work well. However it is a paradigm shift for the American church. As a nation we are “one leader” focused. All responsibility and authority tends to go to one person, not to a team of leaders. There are some church plants who are changing this. You get two equal guys who plant the church. Otherwise, you are trying to change decades of culture—and many people resist that.

SP-XP Dissertation

Hey Fletch … I just finished reading The Senior Pastor and Executive Pastor Team by John Hawco on XPastor. You posted his entire dissertation and it is awesome! Thanks so much for sharing the entire dissertation!

The goal of XPastor is to provide great articles, even entire dissertations, on vital topics for church leaders. I’m so pleased that you found the article “awesome.” John was gracious to include me as one interviewed for his dissertation. He begins his work by stating: “The senior pastor is an accepted icon in the multiple-staff church. The executive pastor, on the other hand, often meets with a quizzical, “What does he do?” On the church scene for over twenty years, there is still no common definition or job description for the executive pastor, nor is it universally accepted that an “executive pastor” is biblically permissible. The meaning of the title ranges from church business administrator to traditional assistant pastor to a full senior associate pastor. Various leadership and relational analogies have been used to try to explain this executive pastor officer. Most executive pastor positions have come to exist through church travail, and their job descriptions have been invented from within the organization.”

Remember that John’s work was written in 2005. Back then the XP role was just emerging into the mainstream. In the intervening years, the XP position has grown into churches of all sizes around the country. Some church planting teams are comprised of a preaching pastor and executive pastor. Two-thirds of churches with 500 in attendance and a $1 million budget have an XP or equivalent in their churches. Churches over 1,000 regularly have an XP. From 2005 to the present, the XP role is now common in church life.

Ops Pastor

Hey Fletch— I so love the resources that you are providing on XPastor. I recently transitioned into the Operations Pastor role, which for us is similar to an XP in most churches. First, I’m observing that ministry leaders have a hard time seeing the holistic ministry picture, and how their ministry is a small puzzle piece in the larger organizational puzzle. Second, ministry leaders make a habit of doing almost everything at the last minute, as in moments prior to the start time of a service. HELP! How do I address these problems?

Those are some great questions in your new role! For your first question, a huge piece of your role is “setting the stage.” You must show leaders how their ministry fits in. Their eyes may glaze over at the complexity of the entire church. Take time to share the big picture, strategy and vision. Show how their ministry fits into the vision of the church. Explain in stories how what they are doing matters as a vital piece of the whole organization.

For the second question, solve this one and you will win a Nobel Prize! Many go into ministry with strong people and relational skills. Unfortunately, this means they need to go to “the school of hard knocks” on planning, strategy and organization. Preach it hard. Give them workable schedules. Set deadlines and show them how to make those deadlines. Unfortunately, prepare to be regularly disappointed for the first year but things slowly will change.

Response—Thank you so much! This was incredible!

Two XPs

Hey Fletch … I’m trying to research churches that have a double XP organization. We are thinking of an XP of Operations and an XP of Ministries. We currently have a Lead Pastor and then me, the XP. We want to split up my duties into the operations side and then hire an XP that the other pastors would report to. Currently we have a staff of six pastors including the LP. So the other five report to him, not to me. We want to go with me and the Ministry XP being the only ones that report to the LP. The worship guy, discipleship guy, youth guy and christian school guy would all report up to the Ministry XP. Are we on the right track?

Have you read this popular article on XPastor, Three Kinds of Executive Pastors? What you have outlined has been done and can fit … depending on your organizational culture. The key is not overloading the LP with direct reports. If both the XP of Operations and XP of Ministry report to the LP, then the LP needs to do reviews, approve vacations/trips/conferences, etc. If you follow an Acts 6 model of having the LP focus on the Word, preaching, vision and leadership, then you want to give him enough hours to do that. Overseeing those vital staff positions takes time and energy. You are doing some great thinking here and are on a good path. Let me know what you decide to do.

Two XPs—More

Hey Prof … I’ve been learning that there are a number of different ways churches use their executive pastors, more than I realized! The idea about the two XPs in a church seems like a good one. Does it allow people to focus in their area of expertise? It seems usually an XP is stronger on the side of business-finance-operations or on the side of ministry strategy-planning-coaching. I admire the solo XP who maintains a great work/life balance among all the constant issues. I believe even for a high leadership person this must be difficult over time. It seems like having the lead pastor supervise one extra person wouldn’t be that big of a drain. It potentially creates a stronger decision-making team at the top. The downside could be power struggles and less unity. The LP could favor one over the other. Or, it could take longer than ideal to make decisions. All that to say is that I’m interested in how this plays out in the real world. Have you seen it work well or poorly over time?

The two executive pastor model can work well. The success depends on the team and the culture. You have laid out many of the issues quite well in your question. Some senior pastors don’t do well over time with two reports. These SPs tend to be stronger visionaries or shepherds. They find the long-term work of managerial leadership to be a challenge. The team meetings are often good but the mentoring, iron-sharpening-iron and annual reviewing begins to fail. Sometimes staff begin to ask: “Who is driving the car?” or “That decision was good business but did it fit our ministry vision?”

The challenge of two XPs is that you need a team meeting of the SP and two XPs to decide a major issue. While this should be easy, it can break down. Consider the math. With two people, there are four possible problem points—my internal issues, your internal issues, my issues with you and your issues with me. With three people, the possible problem points rise from four to nine. There are more opportunities for communication, process and relational breakdowns. In this light, people comment that a camel is an animal made by a committee. If this happens, the three-person team will evolve back to the SP-XP two-person team.

I have known of three-person executive teams that love the format. The SP casts vision and preaches, the XP of Ministry oversees strategy and planning, and the XP of Operations ensures that the facility, legal, HR and financial aspects are taken care of. The church is becoming complex in response to a challenging society. Consider that safety issues just fifteen years ago were elementary compared to the advanced planning and policies needed today.

Many times these three-person teams have people with different backgrounds. An XP of Operations tends to have a strong work-history in business operations, such as a COO. The XP of Ministry tends to have a seminary degree and experience in leading church ministry staff and planning. The XP who was previously a CEO or entrepreneur tends to do better in an SP-XP team. It really is a matter of the church culture and the team.

SP Always Has New Vision

Hey Fletch … I have a senior pastor who is constantly bringing change to the church. One week it is a new way to do small groups, and he did this by blowing up our existing Sunday adult fellowships. A week or two later, he is toying with the structure of the worship service. What should I do?

The issue you raise is one of the “Rate of Change.” Every church has a different coefficient of change, that is the ability to accept and actively adopt new programs and methods. Just as we exegete the Scriptures, so we should exegete the culture of our churches. As Sam Chand said at an XP-Seminar, “you don’t always recognize culture into you have stepped in it.” Then the soles of your shoes have the cow pasture on them. Check out Sam’s book, Culture Catalyst: Seven Strategies to Bring Positive Change to Your Organization. Bringing this up to the Senior Pastor may be delicate. Perhaps you can show to him some of the culture pain that is happening. Work on the timing of cultural changes … most congregations will change, given the right perspective and their needed amount of “absorption time.” I’ve asked Sam to respond:

Sam Chand—First of all please know that your Pastor is normal. The tendency of most Pastors can be to find places and spaces in the church to jump-start and relaunch. It’s tactical (focus on activity) but not strategic (focus on organization). So it becomes more of a trial and error and not impact and outcomes based. Your Pastor is a good Pastor who is not complacent, not afraid of shaking things up and wants the church to grow.

He can accomplish much more however if he takes into account the church’s pain threshold for making changes. In my book Leadership Pain, I break it down simply as: Growth = Change. Change = Loss. Loss = Pain. Therefore, Growth = Pain.

Establishing a culture in which the “why” behind the “what” is not only understood but can be easily articulated is crucial. In my book Culture Catalyst, I break down the word CULTURE to make it tangible as: C = Control. U = Understanding. L = Leadership. T = Trust. U = Unafraid. R = Responsive. E = Execution

You and your church can get a free diagnosis and prescription at samchandculturesurvey. You’ll get 8 pages free, giving you the empirical data explanation and assistance for each item. Your Pastor can move from tactical to strategic and then he can lead with focus on sustainability (making changes last) and scalability (using changes to grow). I know you love, support and pray for your Pastor … keep doing it. Thanks for this opportunity to respond.

SP as Leader or Team Member

Hey Fletch … I am a Senior Pastor here in Australia. We just formulated an Executive Pastor role description. I have operated as ‘leader of the leaders’ in terms of bringing values and vision. Some of the leadership wants us to operate as a level team—no leader of that group. The vision and values would equally arise from anyone in that group. Thoughts?

I would offer three items to consider: First, walk slowly. It may be time to add a new role in the church, or that may cause more rancor. Second, grow the spiritual breath and biblical thinking of the new leaders. Accept as a working hypothesis their managerial input and advice. As our ethic is Jesus’ Kingdom, the church is more than “good business.” We should never settle for “poor business,” nor should we forget that our first priority is to “love others as Christ has loved us.” Before you get an answer to the church vision question, ensure that the leadership team is spiritually mature.

Third, get a good coach to work with you. There may be someone in your denominational headquarters. There may be another pastor near you. In this season, get competent outside advice every week—and let me emphasize “every week!” In some churches, a leader other than the Senior Pastor creates vision. It isn’t common though. The issues that you raise are deeper than “who.” I would take plenty of time to explore the “why.”

Growing as an XP

Rapid Growth from 300 to 1,200

Hey Fletch … I attended the XP-Seminar a few years ago and took one of your free courses. I am now on the leadership team of our church. We have grown rapidly from 300 to 2,000 in less than 5 years. Our Executive Pastor job description was for a smaller church and had no measurable expectations. What do you have as examples of Executive Pastor job descriptions or job interview expectations to lead a church that could be 3,000 with a large growing staff?

Your church is in a massive growth phase. That is so hard to deal with and everyone wants those kinds of problems. You have blown through the 600 and 1,200 person levels. Those are huge cultural levels for churches. When you get to 3,500, the role description tends to be broad. Specifics often go into annual strategic goals and tactical plans, which are highly specific and change from year to year. I’m so pleased for your church. I also hope that you hear the concern that I have for you guys. Seminaries teach how to cope with failure, but rarely teach how to deal with success. Styles of leadership, governance and management change with every size of church, 300 to 600 to 1,200 to 2,000 to 3,500.

Response—Thank you very much for your quick reply. Very complete. We will be working on updating the XP job description and coaching in February. I value the resource you are for churches

You Are Not a Pastor

Hey Fletch … I’m a hurtin’ puppy in Oklahoma right now. Got my tail between my legs. A fellow pastor on staff came into my office and said, “You are not a Pastor. Pastors should do this and that, and you don’t do those things.” I know I should be tough and let it roll off, but it came from a guy on staff.

That’s a bummer on steroids. Part of the fall of humanity is that we see things through our own rose-colored glasses. We want others to be just like us. What a boring world it would be if everyone was just like everyone else. There are three key words in the New Testament for church leaders: shepherd, overseer and elder. Your role is more of an overseer and elder, and his has a lot more shepherding. The New Testament doesn’t say one is better than the other, just different. Hang in there and let him see that you do function in all three roles, even if the majority of your work is as an overseer and elder. Spend some time with him. Serve him and see if perhaps he was speaking out of some personal pain.

Dr. No

Hey Fletch … one of the challenges that I face as Executive Pastor is that everyone is pitching things to me. I feel like I’m “Dr. No.” There are tons of good ideas but we can only do so much as a church. Thoughts?

I know the feeling. I recently got a crazy email asking me to host an event with a local caterer. It was über strange. Part of the role of “top leadership” in a church is to field those emails. Whether from a congregant or the community, you need to respond in a gracious manner. Congregants get longer emails. For a business offer, perhaps save a draft email with a well-worded decline that says something like: “Thanks so much for contacting us. We get so many good ideas but we can’t do all of them. I will get back to you if we are able to move forward with your offer.”

Not the Fun Guy

Hey Fletch … I’m not the fun guy on staff. Do you have any ideas or resources for doing some fun or creative or helpful activities together that might help us? I’m thinking eating and serving together helps, but again, I’m pretty boring.

Here is what I have found works really well. Bring together a cross section of staff, perhaps 4 to 5 admins & pastors. Let them know they are coming for a brainstorming meeting for 45 minutes—all suggestions are fair game. Have a scribe at the meeting put all the “fun activity ideas” on a huge Post-it note on the wall. When the ideas are all up, give everyone 3 small round stickers to vote for their top 3 fun activities. You are letting them drive the bus. You may get some great ideas. You can tell staff that these were generated by their peers.

Meeting with Other XPs

Hey Fletch … I’ve just found your website and am very excited to dig in. One of the things I need to do is find other XP’s in my area to meet with. I’m wondering if you know of any gatherings or individuals you might recommend in my area?

Thanks for your interest in XPastor and your desire to get together with other pastors in your community. There used to be a strong gathering of XPs in your area but the organizer suddenly passed away a few years ago. The group may still meet but we haven’t had as strong of a turnout at our yearly XP-Seminar since his death, so I’m not sure of the group. Let me send you some people to contact in your area. Every XP should be in a local group that meets quarterly. The discussion of key issues is vital for growth. Why reinvent the wheel? Many XPs have met at the XP-Seminar and then formed groups out of that relationship.

Feeling Dry

Hey Fletch … I’m feeling a little dry and out of contact with other XPs. What can you suggest to help me get connected with people leading churches of a similar size to ours?

I’m supposing that you are not connected to other XPs in your area. Have you tried meeting with them as a group? Perhaps they need you to organize a lunch for all local XPs. To get to know people from outside of your locality, come to the XP-Seminar in February. We post the size of churches in the roster, so it is easy to see who works at a church of a similar size. Tami or I would be pleased to make some connections for you as well. The important thing is to take some action. We all need a friend in another church who can understand our issues. Sometimes we need to vent and other times we need candid advice. Search for some colleagues and grow!

No Meeting Thursdays

Hey Fletch … I have all Thursday called NMT—No Meeting Thursday, and set it aside to do just that. I only do strategic planning. I don’t do any other self work or meet with leaders. Thoughts on that?

The best leadership coaches around the country recommend “think time.” The tyranny of the urgent is always with us. Dwight Eisenhower said: “I have two kinds of problems, the urgent and the important. The urgent are not important, and the important are never urgent.” Follow the thinking of a President of the United States. Give yourself sufficient space to focus on important issues. If you can devote an entire Thursday to “Think Time,” that is fantastic. Your staff may not like it because you will come in on Friday with so many ideas and things to do. Humor, trace.

Past XP-Seminars

Hey Fletch … I’m a new XP and would love to listen to past sessions of the XP-Seminar. Do you record them?

We do have the Online Seminar. That has recordings of all the main XP-Seminar sessions but not the workshops. You can access that at any time during the year. Also on that page are a few keynotes from prior years.

Coaching to Grow

Hey Fletch … I am currently in a split role of Children and Executive Pastor at church of 300. I greatly desire additional training but am presently lacking in funds for much—my salary isn’t worth complaining about but only goes so far when supporting a large family! Thanks for your time.

It sounds like an interesting journey for you at the church. This could be a great season of growth in your ministry. In your two ministry areas, there will be plenty of diversity. Kids one day and HR, legal, security, facilities the next. I would encourage you to get some good people on teams to help lead those areas.

The best coaching occurs in weekly phone calls and email exchanges. Personalized mentoring is a sounding board with someone outside the congregation who brings an objective perspective to strategic issues. It gives access to a person with broad knowledge and experience in leading the church. There are a great many things to cover, from giftedness to strategy, current ministry issues to future needs. The XP role is an interdisciplinary one with so much to master. The modern world is amazingly complex, a myriad of initials, such as FICA, SECA and ACA.

Some churches of 300 have funds to help you find a paid coach. If not, perhaps you could find a local XP who could mentor you. You could consider taking some of the free XPastor Online Courses for executive pastors and church leaders. God’s best to you in your dual role!

SP Micro-Managing

Hey Fletch … Thank you for checking back on us. Our lead pastor is an amazing preacher and leader. However, we all fear he does too much. He is micromanaging the staff and working way too many hours. What can you suggest?

Your church is in a major growth phase. That is a wonderful place to be but it can be a wild ride for senior leadership. When I wrote my dissertation, I cited one pastor who said that leading a mega-church was like “riding a wild tiger.” We are too scared to let go and too scared to hold on! Leadership is a wonderful and terrible place to be. So many people—really an entire village—depend on you.

Growth will stall if the senior leader or leaders are not empowering others. Sharing vision and delegating work to others is imperative. Micromanaging is a sign of not trusting the staff with the implementation of the vision. Encourage your pastor to take at least one full day off each week. God did when He created the world. That’s a great example to follow. Ask how you can help implement the church vision. Ask the lead pastor to frequently explain the vision and how it should work out at the church. Then offer to take on specific tasks to implement that vision.

New Skills Needed

Hey Fletch … Compared to five years ago, what skills, knowledge, leadership or sensitivity is needed to lead as XP in a growing evangelical church?

I’ve mentioned before that recently Matt Branaugh, an attorney with Church Law and Tax, asked me why there are so many XPs in churches of 500 people in worship with $1 million budgets. The answer to Matt’s and your question is the same: complexity. In the last twenty years, so many issues have gotten more complex. The Affordable Care Act changed the medical insurance landscape. Many churches now have security teams to thwart an active shooter. Federal tax rules are not getting any simpler and churches are doing a better job at complying with them. The bottom line to your question, the number one ability is for the XP to be multi-disciplinary. They must have the ability to master many disciples, empower others to implement them and keep the church on the “true north of its mission statement.”

Expectations of Staff

Hey Fletch … I am struggling with how directive to be with my staff in terms of “expectations”?

For me, setting expectations is one of collaboration. I find that when I can have a discussion with someone, many times they set great expectations. When I turn leaders loose in their area of giftedness, I generally find that they need coaching, not a foot on the gas pedal. I weave my personal expectations into the discussion, so that in the end, we arrive at a good product. Talk with your staff. Open the door for them to set high expectations. The discussion will be fruitful.

Email Sorting

Hey Fletch … I have a grid of how staff can send me emails to get my attention. I created a four-part numbering system. This lets me immediately know how important their item is. Thoughts?

I like the grid that you sent to me. Remember though, most people can process and use three levels of expectations. Four levels pushes the envelope on what people can remember and use. You want people to signify an ‘urgency mode.’ That’s good as we all get bombarded with so many emails in the course of a workday. Your ‘urgency mode’ is how people can signify to you that something needs urgent attention. It is like ‘stat’ or ‘code blue’ in a hospital. Use the numbers, but I would suggest three numbers. These would essentially be urgency levels of “low, medium and high.”